Ever wonder what the show was like before Steve came aboard as co-host? Tune in to this vintage episode of Don't Encourage Us and listen to our amateur host stumble through the original Shining film, the ABC made-for-TV mini-series, and Doctor Sleep the sequel made decades later...but is it a sequel to the novel, the movie, or the mini-series?? We'll have the answer to that question and more right here after this commercial for a very special episode of Ellen.
Ever wonder what the show was like before Steve came aboard as co-host? Tune in to this vintage episode of Don't Encourage Us and listen to our amateur host stumble through the original Shining film, the ABC made-for-TV mini-series, and Doctor Sleep, the sequel made decades later...but is it a sequel to the novel, the movie, or the mini-series?? Guest co-host and friend of the show, Doug Tidwell, is here to help find the answer to that question and more - right after this commercial for a very special episode of Ellen.
Check out trailers for The Shining (1980), The Shining TV mini-series (1997), and Doctor Sleep (2019)
You can watch The Shining mini-series on the Internet Archive now.
-------------------- HERE'S..... SPOILERS-----------------------------
Reach the pod at DontEncourage@gmail.com
Stop by and discourage us on Instagram, X, TikTok, Discord, YouTube, and Threads
[00:00:00] All right. Welcome to the podcast where we talk about the big ideas behind fiction projects of all different kinds. Books, TV shows, movies, video games, nothing's off limits. My guest today is Doug Tidwell, a very long time friend. The guy who introduced me to some great fiction like the original Tick comics.
I don't know if you remember that back in the day. And he's recently retired from being a productive human being. Hi, Doug. Welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me, Dr. Jason. Uh, great to be here.
All right. So today's topic is the 2019 film, Dr. Sleep, starring Ewan McGregor and Rebecca Ferguson. So Doug, when you first told me about this movie, it seemed like you had a lot of thoughts.
What stood out to you about this
film? Well, I think, I think lately I'm watching movies, uh, and since I'm, as you say, I'm retired from productive living, I've been watching a lot more movies than I used to in the past. What I find in today's movies, there's not a lot of good story. And coupled with not a lot of good [00:01:00] script, and not a lot of good acting, usually you have one component, you have great actors doing a terrible story, or you have a great script, with terrible acting, and a terrible story.
This one, to me, like, the first one in a long time, where everything came together, uh, and just was a really great story, great script, great acting, like, very well directed. And, uh, you know, I had my hesitation at first, because the director is very well known for his, uh, kind of like horror work, or... Thriller suspense work, but this one was more of like an all around movie to me.
And certainly it had its horror components, yes. But I think it wasn't wrong for the script of the movie. It wasn't wrong for the story and flow of the movie. So, uh, I really quite enjoyed it. So that, that's why. And I thought it was very deep. It was a very long movie. Uh, but uh, very, very well done from start to finish, I thought.
Wow, making a lot of great points right out of the gate. I think we're going to be done quick on this one. So you're talking about [00:02:00] Mike Flanagan, director of Oculus in 2013. Uh, more recently Gerald's Game, an adaptation of the Stephen King story in 2017. Something people labeled as unfilmable, but apparently it was pretty good.
Did you see Oculus or Gerald's Game?
Yeah, I saw Jailscape. I thought it was good. The story would be difficult to translate to movie no matter who's doing it, but I think it was fairly well done. And also the main actor, I think, was quite excellent, you know, like, I like him from other movies. He was also in this movie as Dr.
Joe. I was gonna say, he reuses actors like a lot of directors, so yeah. So I saw Oculus. I think I, uh, rented and paid full price for that one, probably in 2013, 2014. I was surprised at the time. It actually was better than I expected. You know, as you would imagine, I really like mediocre films that, you know, like you said, don't meet all three of those criteria.
I really like them if they have kind of a cool idea in it. [00:03:00] And I thought Oculus was gonna be pretty dumb just all around, but I actually got sucked into it. It was really well done, there was a lot of creativity, uh, the story was interesting. I can see why he has a career. He's actually pretty talented at interpreting complicated stuff.
Okay, so this movie, uh, made about 72 million on an estimated budget of 45 million, which by Hollywood standards is not great. Reviews weren't great, although recently people have been warming up to it a little bit more since it popped up on HBO. Any thoughts on why it did not really...
Well, I think I can only speak from my personal point of view.
My personal point of view was more like I saw the trailer and I thought, wow, you know, The Shining was such an amazing movie. And I look back at the, the pop culture. I think it, it, uh, it came from a long, a long line of it's as deeply ingrained. And especially people our age, you know, would think, wow, you know, this movie has [00:04:00] been around forever.
I wonder, you know, if, if it's because. It came out too late. I wonder because, uh, you know, people younger than us would certainly maybe not even know what the shining is. And I think one of the things, you know, I was looking up something the other day about the shining and it was, and I think the most common question is, what is the shining?
What is that? You know, I think it was, unless you, I think unless you read the book, I think even, even before I saw this movie, I didn't know what the shining was. You know, I thought it was, uh, the name was maybe not totally related to the book or the story. Right. So I think that maybe that wasn't totally clear.
Dr. Sleep, I think you can get better, but I think the, I'm just saying from a title standpoint, from a, from a presentation standpoint, you can't easily understand what the movie is about or, you know, how it's related to the books or, and also I think, If, if, if you're younger than a certain age, like maybe, maybe younger than 30, maybe they wouldn't know [00:05:00] well about this movie.
I don't know about the first movie.
Okay, so I think you were saying a couple of things in there, but I want to make sure I understand. So for old men like yourself, who remember when the original movie came out in 1980, uh, it's not as big of a leap. To connect to Dr. Sleep and be interested in that, right?
Like once you're, you become aware that those two things are connected, then it's interesting to you. But for people like myself, who are 18 to 25, or 30, or 35, or somewhere in there, uh, we just don't necessarily know Shining by the movie or by the book, right? Is that,
yeah, I think that's one guess. I mean, uh, because I, overall, I thought it was a very good movie.
I think you didn't need to. Know the previous stuff to enjoy it. I think it was like, like I said, well directed, well scripted, well acted, uh, you know, great cast. So I'm actually a little bit surprised it was such a kind of, let's say, [00:06:00] financial flop at the box office. It might, might be timing as well, right?
Yeah,
I mean, I think there was some competition, but you said something else too, which I thought, I can't tell if you were saying this or if it's just an interesting idea that It's similar to what you were saying, but so the original Shining concept, you're saying people were looking that up, like what is the Shining because it wasn't clear from the film what the Shining is?
Yes, exactly. Okay. But you, but then you said Dr. Sleep, you feel like it's clear from this film where that title comes from. Yeah, correct. So what is your read of where is, where does Dr. Sleep come from in
this film? Well, I, I think that's because that's what they call them in the hospital, and I think, I, I guess, you know, and this, this is, uh, my, without having read a single page of either of the books, I guess that, that part in the hospital might have had a bigger part.
It did. But also, I, I don't, I don't know, I don't know what else you'd call the movie. I think, I think it's quite interesting that this, this guy uses his powers kind of for good in [00:07:00] a hospice and starts to get called Dr. Sleep, but if you, if you look back at the movie, that was just a very, very small part of the movie.
So it's a little bit misleading from a, let's say, titling standpoint to call it Dr. Sleep. Actually, what do you call it? Like, uh, Young Girl with Shining Gets Help from Old Guy. You know, I don't know, like, there's not a, I think, I think it's a well titled, uh, uh, thing, but somehow the title's not very well related to the plot of the movie.
Well, I think you're missing the obvious Little Miss Sunshine. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. I think that's clearly, clearly the best one. Dr. Sleep, according to what I read about the book, right? Dr. Sleep is a reference to Ewan McGregor's character. And it's where he, spoiler alert as always for this podcast, I'm going to spoil the hell out of everything.
It's where he ends up in the novel, right? So he's He's helping people transition from life to death, uh, naturally in old age. And he goes back to that at the end of the novel. So he is Dr. Sleep. It's kind of his full [00:08:00] cycle, like his resolution, his healing. Right? So, yeah. I mean, I, from that perspective, I think it's a good title, but to me, that makes it a good title of the novel, not necessarily a good title for the movie.
Okay, so The Shining 2. What's, what's wrong with that?
I don't, I don't think that's too bad. Actually, and this, this was one of the other things when I was looking up The Shining, I think a lot of people couldn't remember the name of the movie, so they said, oh, what's, what's that movie The Shining 2? You know, this was one of the big searches that people were looking.
So The Shining too hotter and Steamier. . I think that's exactly, that's the way you go. It's really odd. It's right there. Little Miss Steamy.
Little Miss Steamy. Yeah. And, and, and, yeah, Ferguson's lovely. And she does a great job in, uh, in, uh, in the movie, right. So, uh, no, it was, it was quite enjoyable. But I, I, I think when, when I was looking back too, I, I was looking back, comparing.
In a way to the books because I was looking there were so [00:09:00] many like I got a lot of controversy how Stanley Kubrick did the first movie and actually it's quite interesting to me like the Dr. Sleep seems to be more of a shining to than it is a Dr. Sleep from the book right because there's a lot of things where it's more following the first movie than it is following closely to the book as I understand right maybe maybe this part where he's Dr.
Sleep is I guess, uh, but also, you know, one of the interesting things I found was, and, uh, that I actually, I didn't know until I was looking, watch the shining again recently and looked, looked into it a little more. The original of The Shining book, I guess, at the end of the, at the end of the book, they burn down the hotel, and that's kind of Jack Torrance's kind of, you know, circle, that's his arc, he comes back, saves the family by burning down the hotel and saving them, you know, and he doesn't kill, you know, he doesn't kill [00:10:00] Dick, you know, the guy that's mentoring, You know, a little doc.
So I think it was quite interesting, you know, the, the Dr. Sleep movie keeps kind of the shining movie storyline a little bit more intact than keeping closer to the book. So this is something I found quite, quite strange. And yeah, and then I, I didn't really remember it. Then I found that there was a 19, I don't know.
You remember this? There was a 1997 remake miniseries of the shining. Oh,
I'm so glad you brought that up. So once again, you threw a lot of meat in the water. Uh, you, you got me in a frenzy here. This is, uh, there's a lot to talk about. All right. So we're talking about the movie. The Shining versus the book, right?
Then you talked about how Doctor Sleep, the movie, is a sequel to the book and to the movie, the original Shining book and movie, right? So in different ways. He talked about that. So I just want to break it down a little bit and you also brought up the miniseries and we're gonna talk about all that. This is just so exciting for me.[00:11:00]
All right, so Have you recently re watched the Shining film, the 1980 Uh, Shining
film. Yeah, I did because I love Dr. Sleep. And I really couldn't remember a lot of the original movie. Like, I didn't even remember what The Shining was. You know, like, I didn't remember that there was even a reference to it in the movie.
And I've not seen it in a long time. You know, what I do remember is when I watched the movie the first time, I really don't know what year it was, I was about the same age as Danny, right? Yeah. And I looked it up. That guy's born in 73, right? So the, the actor in the movie is yeah, about, about my age. So I must, I must've seen it about the time that it came out, probably when it went to, I didn't see it in the movie theater.
So probably I saw it on TV.
Wow. That explains so much about your
personality. I thought that kid was so cool with his little, you know, his little bike. Cruising around the hotel that looks like a lot of fun. But we watched the movie and actually I was a [00:12:00] bit surprised a few things like they do talk about the shining and I'd Completely forgotten about the part where where a dick and the boy are talking using their minds and he's kind of introducing them to that but because it seemed that was almost a sidebar in the movie And you kind of don't understand what the kid's powers have to do with anything in the rest of the whole movie, right?
The kid has powers and dad goes crazy and tries to kill them both. Do you know what I mean? And it seems, it seems totally unrelated, right? So Kubrick played that down. I think so. I think so.
Interesting. Okay, so, uh, I actually watched the miniseries from 1997 in preparation for this podcast because I thought it would be a nice counterpoint to the movie and to, you know, Doctor Sleep, the sequel.
So, uh, yeah, the miniseries, you said there was controversy, right? Specifically Stephen King. Did not like the original [00:13:00] Shining, so in a very weird deal, they agreed to make this mini series in return for him shutting up and no longer bad mouthing the original film. So in many ways, the mini series is more like the novels.
Stephen King's actually in the mini series. He plays the, like, ghostly... Uh, conductor of the band in the, uh, third part of the miniseries when the ghosts are just everywhere in, like, really cheap, sort of white chalk, dead paint, like, dancing around. And he hands it up, like, nobody's business. You were trying to say that Dr.
Sleep is partially a sequel to Stanley Kubrick's The Shining and partially a sequel to the book. Book. So what aspects, I mean, obviously there's a lot of the film, the Shining film in Dr. Sleep. What about the book? What did you think was different?
Yeah. No, so I mean, as, as, as, as I recall, and like I say, I, I didn't read a page of either of the books, but my, my understanding was the key thing was the [00:14:00] ending was the, at the end of the Shining.
That Jack Torrance redeems himself by, what is it, like, overloading the boilers and making the hotel?
Yeah, yeah, he fails to release the steam, I believe. Yeah, and he does that intentionally. Uh, and it's, it basically, a lot of this book was written when Stephen King was struggling with alcoholism. Uh, and so he wanted the main character to have redemption, and so in the end, he saves his family and blows up the hotel.
And in the sequel book, the novel Doctor Sleep, the hotel has been destroyed. It's not a, like, I don't remember, I don't know if you remember this, but Michael Crichton, you know, the original Jurassic Park. Then it came out, and that was very different from the film, and the film was great, and the novel's great.
And then the sequel to Jurassic Park, written by Michael Crichton, was more of a sequel to the movie than it was to his original novel. Right. Right, but I think Stephen [00:15:00] King wrote Doctor Sleep as a direct sequel to his novel. Right, he stayed true to where things were left in that. Exactly. Okay, and in the Doctor Sleep film, the ending is different from the novel in part to honor The, um, original Jack Torrance, like in the novel, the original end for him, that's Dan's end in Doctor Sleep, the movie, but not the novel.
Yeah, so I think, I think this is where I was quite curious, because when I was reading that originally he did He did burn it down in the, in the first novel. And I thought, well, hey, hang on. I, I saw something where it was burned down and then I, I realized I had seen the miniseries and totally forgot about it.
Yeah. I, I had, I had seen it and I, I forgot about it and then I, then I, I was looking, I looked at the trailer and I thought, wow, oh yeah, I did see that. You know, and obviously in 1997 and it's got Rebecca Dayne, so yes. Ah, yes. She's so good in that. But [00:16:00] it had a little bit of a B grade feel to it, that one, somehow.
Like, the Kubrick's was a very kind of dark, and a lot of imagery, uh, very intense and heavy music. And that one was, it seemed to me like it was a little bit, I don't know, lighter. And a little bit, uh... Not as good production value, somehow. Yeah, no, I think you're
dead on. I mean, I watched the whole thing on the Internet Archive.
It's there for free, complete with the commercials. Uh, apparently that was about the time Ellen was coming out. I don't remember if... If you remember the episode, Ellen's the episode. Uh, also Austin Powers was about to be released, so a lot of commercials, it was quite a journey. Uh, but there were some key differences that I thought stood out.
Now, I've, obviously I've seen the Shining film, but it's been a while. So, I'm sure I didn't, this isn't like an exhaustive catalog of all the differences, but you mentioned Early on, that [00:17:00] there's a conversation between Danny and Halloran, Dick Halloran, I believe is his name, the, yeah, the sort of regular caretaker.
Where they talk a little bit about The Shine. Well, in the miniseries, that has expanded dramatically. Also, apparently, at least in the first half of the miniseries, everybody seems to understand that Danny is psychic, and they're fine with it. Which seems totally different. Um, there's, there's a conversation.
Dick Halloran really... Specifically talks about how much Danny glows in the dark with his shine, like they really drive home that whole shine concept like as an analogy and why that works. So I thought that was really good. Uh, and they also mentioned there was a really great line, I don't think it was in the film.
The line was, the hotel shines too. Which I thought was a great line when I watched the miniseries before I watched Dr. Sleep. I made a note of that line, and I'm really glad I did because it [00:18:00] was so relevant in understanding the mythology in Dr. Sleep. Does that make sense to you? Do you know why I like it?
Did you get that from the film? Re watching? No, not
at all. I mean, you could tell there was something about the hotel where it was... Something magical about it, but also kind of devious and evil that seems to corrupt people. Uh, but I, you know, for me, even, even re watching, I didn't really get that there was a strong connection.
Like, you, you could, from the movie, you could assume just Dick had the powers. Right? You don't, you don't even realize that the boy has powers. The boy just seems to ride around on his bicycle. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I, I, so I, I was kind of taken back to my first watching of it where I, I more felt like I'm the boy on the bicycle, right?
Because I'm same age as him. . Uh, no. Also, there was, there was some funny things that I didn't realize before that I, I, I, I didn't remember at all that were very [00:19:00] strange on rewatching the, the first movie that struck me very odd. Like, um, uh, like for example, there's, there's a scene where, uh, the, the, the mother goes upstairs, you know, she's, she's looking for Jack and she's getting kind of crazy and manic and, and she comes across a room and there's, there's like a guy in a very weird 1920s bear costume blowing another guy in a.
In a tuxedo, right? And it's just like, it's very, I didn't remember that it was even there, but it's quite shocking and it's just, and it's just, boom, it's there. And then it's gone. And it's very, it's very weird. Uh, and I actually, so I, I saw this, there's, there's a few things in the movie that are quite strange, but I saw this, I looked more into it and it was.
It looked like, uh, and I, I don't know what it came in the book, but it looked like there were some kind of like, they were insinuating there was sexual [00:20:00] abuse in the family relationship. And that's, that's why the bear was there in the Shining movie, but it was very low key because they were saying like every time.
And I think there were like four or five scenes where there were bears in the movie and it, and it happened to be like where Danny was in the picture. This was the only scene where there was a bear without Danny in the picture. So it was quite, there was, there's like, there's, there's different things going on the movie.
I think one of my favorite things that I noticed on the rewatching that I missed the first time was that when, when Dick went back to, I think he lived in Miami or something. He lived in Florida, right? And he, he went back there cause he, he hated to live in all the snow. Uh, and he wanted to be as far away from it as possible.
And he has this like bachelor pad, like hot, sexy bachelor pad in Florida, and he's got like these velvet pictures of ladies with massive afros, wearing nothing, and it's [00:21:00] hilarious, like it's, it's quite, uh, because it's just, it's just sticks out. It's doesn't kind of follow the flow of them. It's a bit weird.
And you kind of wonder like, oh, there's more to this guy, but then he shows up the lodge and he gets killed right away. Right. So. Yeah, that's also apparently something different from the book. I guess in the book he got like, yeah, his leg hurt or something and in the, in the movie he gets an axe to the chest and he's dead, right?
So it's, it's, uh, I think it's quite interesting. It was hard to see, you know, that the boy was actually the main character, although the story seems to be partially from his point of view in the first movie. Also, it's not super clear from the first movie that the Shining is the boy in the hotel exactly.
You know, most of the story and drama unfolds with the dad, you know, and his struggles with alcoholism.
Yeah, well, the miniseries, uh, obviously [00:22:00] Dick survives, he actually stays, he supports, he helps support the surviving family members. Uh, and it's a very different, um, it's like a happier ending. But there was an element in the miniseries that was totally absent from the, uh, the movie version, and that was...
This older, sort of teenage, 17 year old, give or take, boy, who is talking to, he's like an imaginary friend, and he's talking to young Danny throughout the film. He's giving him warnings, he's telling him things, he's sort of guiding him. And he seems friendly, but you don't know if he's a ghost or where he comes from, and he appears long before.
They're at the, the, um, Overlook Hotel, and at the end of the film, like, the last scene is the high school graduation of Danny, he's now much older, he's, I guess, 17, and he is that boy, so, that teenage boy that he was talking to when he was younger, so he was speaking to his future [00:23:00] self, or his future self was projecting himself into the past to guide his younger self, uh, and of course, uh, Dick is at the, uh, Graduation.
So that's a very different ending, but I think more interesting to me is the piece you were talking about before, which is in the Stanley Kubrick film. It's like there's a psychic older guy. There's a kid who may or may not have something psychic or unusual about him. And then there's a haunted hotel and those things don't really seem directly connected.
Yeah, exactly. And I think, uh, if I remember correctly, the Yeah. The kid was talking to Tony, right? He would say like this, right? With his finger, right? . Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that was the only thing psychic that he was doing was like, kind of like having what was like mini seizures or strokes and talking with his finger in a weird voice.
Right. And actually I, on, [00:24:00] I, I re-watched Dr. Sleep and I found, actually they refer to this in the Dr. Sleep movie, they say, he says, I think McGregor says like, oh. I used to just think my powers were another person and I called it Tony when I was a kid. So it refers back and explains something a little more, but because in the, in the First Shining, like you, I, I just inferred he was either talking to a ghost or a ghost was talking to him or he was just a little bit crazy.
I wasn't sure what was going on, but, uh, yeah, I think they kind of tied that that was kind of tied up in the second movie where he said, oh, that's Tony, but to me, it makes more sense. And also I find there's, there's. For the movie versions, and I, I found on, I re watched Dr. Sleep again, lately. Uh, I find there's, there's a, there's kind of a big gap in the, in, in the story.
Like you see, let's say if you take the both movies together, as, as a group, [00:25:00] you see Danny in the hotel. He has this trauma, then he's with his mom, just the two of them. And they're having these very intense interactions and then bam, you know, he's, uh, in his thirties, right? And, and you, you know, you don't see anything else that's happened and you, cause you wonder like, how did he get from this little boy to like a real deadbeat 30 something year old guy?
So it's, it's, it's something, something kind of missing from the movie story of this. And I guess it's probably more full in the book than the books.
If I recall from what I, from the little bit I read. And in the book, his mother is more injured and as a result is not able to really fully support them.
And she's in a lot of pain and she dies young. And so Danny is on his own relatively early and still unsure of what he's dealing with and [00:26:00] how, and what he sees. And he's, he sees people. Uh, black flies, I believe, flying around them before they die. So his mother's, the week leading up to her death is particularly traumatic for him, because all he sees is flies to the point where he can't even see her eyes really clearly.
And he's, he's so disgusted looking at her. And she sees that, uh, that it mars her death or the experience of her death for him and sort of chases him away from the fate that he ultimately decides on. Which is using this ability to help guide people into death peacefully. So, he turns to alcohol at some point, and that's his downfall.
And I think we're supposed to infer a lot of that in the film. Um, but you're right. It is, it was jarring. It was jarring for me. I agree 100%. Yeah,
I mean, it's, it's a, it's kind of a big gap in what could be a very interesting part of the story, but... I mean, they already have, what is the movie? It's like two and a half hours.
I think, you know, you can't, you can't cover everything, you [00:27:00] know, and they, they, they did cover, they cover a lot of ground. They cover really a lot of ground.
Did you watch the director's cut or the regular theatrical? Uh, the first
time I watched the regular one, the second time, uh, I watched the director's cut.
To be honest, I, there was only one or two scenes I could pick out that were not in the first, and they didn't seem particularly, Yeah, I should have, I should have paid more attention, but they didn't, they didn't seem particularly, um, very telling scenes, but it was, uh, like, I can't recall that they, they did explain something, uh, I think, actually, I think it was the scene where he mentioned that Tony was I think that was the scene that was in the director's cut.
Ah-huh. .
Okay. There was, yeah, so I read a summary of the differences and they, the reviews said the director's cut adds some things that I think [00:28:00] thematically make the story work a little bit better, or pacing wise, help the charact. Uh, feel a little bit more rounded out, like helpful stuff. The summary I read didn't, didn't strike me as really critical information.
So I think the editing probably, you know, makes it work, makes it flow a little bit better. And it is kind of... Yeah, I mean, you know what, I,
I didn't even realize I was watching the director's cut. And then I, I kind of paused it about half the way through. And I saw the, in the title that it was the director's cut.
I thought, oh, you know, I need to pay attention and see, I'm curious to see, because I'm always, usually the director's cut, it's quite, quite different, uh, scenes and it adds a different feel to the movie, but I didn't find there was that much difference. Yeah,
I don't think there were any, like, major added scenes that, You didn't, it was just pieces of other scenes, right?
It was a little bit more here or there, which could be nice, but there wasn't like, they didn't add a scene with many guns. You know, they're just really excited. Uh, [00:29:00] so... Yeah,
sorry, uh, because I think, you know, we were talking about some of the differences to the book. I think one of the other weird ones to me, you know, it seemed like Stanley, Stanley Krupuk just really kind of made his own thing.
It just was very loosely based on the book, right? The other, the other thing that struck me very, very strange that I was trying to think how it would work, if I understood correctly, in the, in the book, there was no maze, but there were topiaries or like, you know, bushes. That's right. It was in the miniseries.
That came alive. Yeah. And I was just, I can't remember how it was in the miniseries. I was just trying to think if, if Stanley Kubrick filmed this, like, it would be ridiculous. You know, people like in hedge costumes. Chasing Danny around like it doesn't it was not not as scary. Yeah, it was not as scary as the maze and the freezing cold.
So, uh, this is very, uh. Another very interesting thing, like, actually, I [00:30:00] think he made a good call to put the maze in instead of, uh, topiaries for the, for the, for the visual effects they had at the time. It would have looked very cheesy.
Yeah, Kubrick has a real gift for atmospheric horror. He knows how to set a scene.
They created... special weird sets for the hallways for the hotel. Everything was disproportionate. So it was a bit off setting or off putting for the audience. Like there was something about it. You couldn't quite put your finger on that made you uneasy because it actually wasn't built to regular proportions and the mini series, they filmed it.
They filmed it in the hotel that inspired the shining. But it's still a hotel with regular proportions. It's a normal building. And those topiaries are all really primitive CGI. So it is not amazing. It's not scary at all, really. Although they try hard.
Cause I didn't remember that, but I was just thinking like.
There's no way that that would be [00:31:00] good. No.
No, they try really hard. They try to build it up with the soundtrack and everything. But they just, it never works. Uh, I think there's a scene in the book where when Dick Halleran's on the way up the mountain to come back to save them, he's attacked by the Topiary Hedge Animals.
Uh, that wasn't in the miniseries, thank God. But, uh, yeah, so that, that, that all that stuff was cut wisely. I think it's, it could work in your head, maybe, if you're reading the novel, but, uh, it's a stretch
to film that. Yeah, no, because I was thinking, yeah, that would, that would work very well in, in your imagination, but yeah, and, and, and especially with the, the, the animation, the effects at the time.
I mean, think about, think about special effects like in Star Wars or Flash Gordon or, you know, Conan, like, that would be the effects we would have. Pretty terrible, I think
Crazy. All right. [00:32:00] So dr. Sleep we haven't actually talked a ton about that movie What were your thoughts in general? Best part worst part any aspects of it that you loved or didn't like so much.
Yeah.
Okay. I thought the Because I really like the flow of how they do the chapters. Actually, I don't know why, maybe I'm simple, but I like when they kind of break down movies into different chapters, because then you can, it helps you to follow the flow and understand kind of what's going on in this part.
Like, what's the message of this? You know, they talk about, what is it? The empty devils and the... You know, the, the kind of tricks that they're playing on, on each other and it's, it's quite interesting the, the flow. Um. I
believe that's a director's cut thing. The title cards? You're talking about that refer to the sections.
Yeah. Yeah. That's a director's cut. Oh, that is.
Okay. Somehow I thought that was, I thought that was in the original movie as well. You know, you might
be right. I've. I might be crazy. [00:33:00]
No, but that was, that was pretty good. But I think just overall, like I didn't have a, the first time I watched it, I didn't have a really high expectation because I thought every movie is kind of so, so these days, but I thought, you know, the flow started good.
I mean, with Rose the hat and, you know, she. It starts with her and the little girl, Violet, and it's just so creepy. And you can just imagine what happens to that girl, you know, when they take her. But you don't know until later that it's much worse than you imagined. So I think it starts very strong and it starts on a good approach that these guys have been doing this for a long time.
And they're doing it, you know, time after time after time. And it's kind of these, like, new cast of characters you didn't know from the first movie. Even existed, right? So I think it's, uh, I think the way they, they behave or the, uh, the [00:34:00] things they do, like their powers quite different from person to person and, you know, and you, you don't even like, you know, it's not like an X Men movie, like you don't have a list of powers, like this person got x ray vision and, you know, they have like kind of weird witchy powers.
So it's kind of, uh, it's, it's kind of interesting and, uh, you know. Disconcerting at the same time, but you see the, uh, the protagonist also have different sets of powers that can't be really nailed down, you know, and throughout the, throughout the story, you keep finding, and I think this is also an interesting aspect, because you don't know what the antagonists can do, and you find, oh, they can do things I didn't know about, you know, they're really, especially Rose the Hat, you know, very tricky.
Uh, but then you keep finding, you know, Danny and the girl, they actually have different powers as well. So I think, I think this is quite, uh, quite interesting. And especially, I think, like, one of the most interesting scenes is when, [00:35:00] uh, Actually, I, I think, what is it, like, two thirds or three quarters through the movie, you see they, they're doing actual, uh, How's it called?
Like, astral projection. They're... They're remote viewing, basically, right? Different, uh, different areas and looking for each other without being noticed it's and so they're kind of using this thing that a lot of conspiracy theorists think is out there and the government's trying to encourage this and ultra program and all this kind of stuff, right?
Uh, they're using this as a mechanism to kind of connect the characters, which I think is very, very interesting in the way they do it. When Rose was doing it, I was, uh, I was also reminded of the big Lebowski where he's floating through the air with the bowling ball. And I think this was, uh, you know, it's quite interesting.
And then when, [00:36:00] especially when the little girl traps Rose inside, uh, inside her mind, when she's trying to like. You know, plant suggestions and do something and she gets her, her hand caught inside the drawer and then she's reading Rose's mind like really fast. Yeah. Uh, that's quite a really, uh, interesting turn and interesting thing where the, the kind of hunter who you think is like a unbeatable, like unfeasible, like bad guy suddenly becomes like very weak, trapped prey.
I thought that was a very interesting turn in the movie. Um, what, what about you? What, what was your like kind of best part, worst part, like most interesting thing that happened? So
undoubtedly, in my opinion, you, you nailed it. Like that unexpected. Reversals like reversal or I guess Abra to say. To say it really clearly is kind of dark and [00:37:00] very, very competent.
Like she's clever. She turns things around on them. She works really, really well with Danny. Right? Even recruits him, you know, she has this deviousness. Yeah. That is so well suited for this. And instead of predator and prey, you have equal adversaries. Who are going at it. I almost, at times, felt sorry for the rest of the True Knot.
Because other than Rose, they were all just sheep. Uh, who thought they were wolves. So that, that made a big chunk of this film really, really exciting and fun to watch. And I'd say right there, that, that alone makes the whole movie worth watching. The Shining references, the, you know, some of the old shots and things that they integrated.
Normally I hate that stuff. I actually liked it. I don't mind. I didn't mind it in this context, and it kind of worked. I thought, uh, bringing back Jack Torrance, uh, was done. I didn't think I would like [00:38:00] that. As soon as I figured out what was happening, I actually really liked that. I thought it was really powerful from the perspective of Dan to have that experience with his father.
I absolutely hated the thumping heartbeat soundtrack. I feel like that is cliche and annoying and it kept taking me out of the story. I wish I kept looking for an invisible knob to turn it down, um, but that was very annoying and I'm not even going to talk about this because it's ridiculous, but Abra, really?
That's her name, Abra.
Okay, yeah, I thought that was, is that from the book? I from
the book, and in the book, Abra and Dan are related.
So, so he is Uncle Dan and we're like, I mean, she basically, she calls him that, but, uh, just to, that's just to fool people to think there's not a creepy old guy with me. Right.
Right. Which
I thought was great and tied to something I really liked about the film, which is. Typically, in a movie like this, a character like Dan, who has the history he has, [00:39:00] and Abra, who's a young girl, like a tween or whatever, they make dumb decisions and they create problems for themselves. But throughout this film, they made what I thought were really reasonable decisions, and that was great.
Not just when they were fighting, but this whole idea of Uncle Dan, like using the name or referring to him as uncle so that he doesn't look like a pedophile. Uh, the only thing I thought was going to get him in trouble was when he had red rum smashed into his wall and his little bedroom there and then digging up the baseball kid.
I figured somehow those two things were going to connect and come back to haunt him. But as I understand it in the novel, the mother who's referenced, uh, or yeah, mother, which is Abra's grandmother, who's Reference briefly in the movie is Diane, I think, of cancer in the movie. She is, she reveals at the end of the book or close to it that Dan and Abra are related via, I want to say Dan's father slept with somebody else and so she's sort of like a half.
[00:40:00] What would that be? Half niece, I guess? Um, so, or I guess half sister? Half sister? No. Half niece. Right, because her mother is Dan's half sister. Uh, I believe is what comes out. So anyway, they cut all that out of the movie, which I guess makes sense. It's fine. But yeah, the grandmother is quite
complicated
too, right?
I mean, it would have been, but the grandmother or Abra's grandmother is a, is also very powerful with the shine, which implies that it's somehow passed down through the family. Uh, and she plays a role in how the true knot is defeated. So it's a very different.
Oh yeah, because I thought something that was interesting was like the mum Seemed to to know that Abra had powers like and would ask her to find the keys or something, right? But also she would there was a scene where she asked how Momo, you know, the grandmother is she gonna make it? You know, she's asking her, you know, how [00:41:00] long does she have or something like this?
And and and Abra is just like oh, yeah I don't know, tell her hi for me, wish her well, you know. Yeah. She's trying to hide that she has the powers, she doesn't want to make it so open. But mom seems to know some things up, right? She knows... Yeah. She has something. Maybe, maybe it's because... Momo, because the grandmother had powers as well.
It could be. It could be. Well, you remember like Dick, uh, Dick said he learned from his... Was his mother or his grandmother? Oh gosh, he was, yeah, he, in the, in the, I think he said in the, in Dr. Sleep, he, he learned it. Oh, maybe it was, I don't remember which one. He, he said he learned from his grandmother. I think so.
She taught him, she taught him the trick about putting them in a box. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Because that, that came from his, uh, mother or grandmother. So I, I think somehow there is some family thing to it, but I think, I don't know that there's too many stories like this where Oh, wow. You know, the, the main characters are related.
You know, it's, it's kind of very [00:42:00] cliche as well. Absolutely. It would be an interesting twist, but it's also cliche. And I thought, yeah, I'm sorry. I thought, I thought what was interesting was the, the, some of the, the ancillary characters, right? Like Dr. Joe, and is it, there's a Billy who gets him into the rehab.
I mean, they're quite strong characters in the story, and very well done, and especially Billy, you know, goes with him to dig up dead bodies and shoot people. Yeah. Just, I mean, it's really amazing, like, this guy is on board for this, I mean, but really, he's a good character and really progresses the story quite well.
And unfortunately, he's killed, I mean, because he's, he can't resist the power of the knot, right? The pusher. No, but I think it added a lot to the movie as well. Did you think... Yeah, I want to say something. Sorry to interrupt you. You're right about the heartbeat. I was thinking about this last night. It's because I loved that they started with some, [00:43:00] you know, some kind of ominous music at the start.
They had the Stanley Kubrick, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, like this. It was good. And then I think a lot of the sound effects were good. Uh, but then, yeah, when you, every time that heartbeat came up, actually, I think they used it as well as they could because they made it slower or faster, you know, and that was kind of interesting, like it lets, you know, something sinister is coming and sometimes it's like, you know, very slow at the start and then it goes a little bit faster.
That's true. No, but, but I did find it was. It was distracting. It was like a little bit of a too simple of a device. So thanks for pointing that out. Actually, I may not have thought about it, but last night when I was watching it, I found it very distracting, like very annoying.
Yeah, it is omnipresent. About the time you get over it and start thinking it's not that bad, it's back.
And it's louder. And it's faster. I couldn't turn it off. Maybe it was just in [00:44:00] my head. Maybe that's my shine. So I wanted to ask you, Oh, uh, you were just saying something a second ago too.
We'll have to circle back to it. So steam, the shine and the soul, same thing, different
thing. I, I thought it was the same thing. Uh, because I, I, I, I thought about this a little bit. Something interesting you'll, you notice when he was Dr. Sleep in the hospice. There was some steam coming out of the people who didn't have any shine or right actually if I understood from The the movies the two movies collectively correctly Everybody's got a little shine, you know, and and just it's so little that maybe you don't know And if you're dark, maybe you don't have that much shine I don't know right but I know you notice like I think all the people in the hospice that died when they died They had a little bit of steam come out not a [00:45:00] lot a little bit very faint Uh, but I guess the shining people had more steam.
I, I, I think it's, I think it is the soul somehow, but then are you to say that people that have the shining have more soul than normal people? That seems a little bit strange to me. It's a strange, uh, supposition. Um, what did you
think? I thought it was unclear, right? I originally, for a big chunk of the film, I felt like the shine and steam were different things.
Like shine being the ability to use your steam. And steam being something that everyone possesses. And then perhaps the steam is different for those who shine. But as the movie went on, I was less clear on that distinction, and it seemed to blur a lot, and I think part of the reason for that is exactly what you were saying, right, when you see how Dr.
Sleep finds his niche, right, it's largely [00:46:00] around helping people's steam move to the next type of existence, we go on, they said repeatedly, uh, so, and also watching Baseball Boy, Hey, And which was pretty tough. That was brutal.
That was very brutal. I was a bit Shocked like that was a bit. I knew they weren't, you know, treating these kids nicely or whatever But I didn't realize they were like brutally torturing them to get more of the steam out.
It's quite crazy
Yeah, and there was something really mechanical. It wasn't Like typically with vampires they absorb or suck or you know, like they almost sort of magically consume But there was something quite Paramedic about this or the opposite of that, you know, she was pumping the soul or the steam out of this child It was pretty disgusting and
very yeah It's quite disturbing.
Yeah. [00:47:00] Quite disturbing. Uh, so I'm glad they didn't show it in every case that they had a victim though, too. That would have been quite hard to watch.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I was also a little, like, the idea of what is this steam, what is shine, what is the soul, or, you know, how is this movie portraying those things, I think was also a little bit muddied by the fact that the True Knot members, when they died, they turned into steam.
And my understanding of the The process that turns them into members of the True Knot would, I would, I assumed up to that point that they gave up their souls, like that they were no longer human and they were empty vessels and they had, they were consuming the steam of, or the souls of those with shine.
I don't know if they could or couldn't feed off of somebody who doesn't shine. But maybe they can't I maybe then they still have but [00:48:00] they whatever it is Whatever steam is they still had it and they had a lot of it We watched old man flick was his name I think or grandpa when he died He released a large amount of that stuff and the rest of them consumed it.
So Don't think it's a
soul. No, you made a good point because I mean I think even In that chapter where they were kind of introduced, or that they were showing more about, they were called empty devils, right? They're, they're not, they're hollow, right? They're not made of anything. That's why they need to absorb the steam from other people.
No, but you're right. Then, suppose they shouldn't have any. Yeah, it's kind of,
yeah, I mean, and maybe that wasn't theirs, like when they die, maybe the steam you see is the residual steam from others that they're holding in their form and it's finally released. Or maybe whenever they feed, they save their bodies or their shells.
[00:49:00] Hold some of it. And so when they expire or when that shell is compromised, then it collapses and what they've held of those they've consumed is released, uh, sort of freeing the pieces of those individuals or those people that they've consumed. I don't know. I mean, that that would still basically work, but it doesn't explain it.
It means that the steam and the shine are two different things, right? Yes. Yes, it does.
Yeah.
And that's kind of where I landed with that. And I feel like it's important to understanding the creative ideas of this world. I don't know if Stephen King actually would want it that defined. But to me it seems like that's, that, that makes the most sense.
Yeah, and obviously Stanley Kubrick would not want it to find it all. No, right. Yeah, he wanted it to be Just insinuate everything. Yeah,
[00:50:00] absolutely. Uh, oh, the question I wanted to ask you before. Do you think Billy Shown or had the shine or was shiny
Billy, was he a shiner? Sorry? Who? Who, who? Who's Billy?
Oh, wait, was was, was that the friend? What was his name? Oh yeah, yeah. The
friend. Billy. Billy, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, I I, I'm gonna look and see just to Sure. Wasn't he a shiner? Yeah, I think he was. I think he had a little shine. 'cause I think that's, that's what they were referring to.
Uh, 'cause he said, he asked him a few times like, Hey, you seem to have a real sense about people without even. Without even knowing them that well, you know, you can, you seem to understand whether it's a good person or a bad person. He even said to the guy like, hey, you know, you can tell by your, I don't remember how he referred to it.
He said, you can tell that I'm a good person. You trust me because you feel it, something like that. I think he referred to it, but I think he obviously wasn't like [00:51:00] a heavy shine like, uh, like Abra or. But, uh, I think he thought he definitely had it. You definitely had some small amount. You're not, that's why he, I think you, you heard from a couple of the other characters, like, uh, I think the landlord, when, when he was moving into the place said, Oh, you know, you picked up another loss, you know, straight, you know, you always doing this, something like that.
And I think, uh, then Dr. Joe said something like, Oh. Uh, if, if you, you picked the right wing to get under, you know, this Billy is a good one and he always takes great care of the people that he's, he helps, right? So I think, I think, you know, he must have some kind of shine and he's definitely has a, has a heart and.
Is looking out for people, you know, he's, he's quite a, you know, a, a true, uh, protagonist. He's, he's one of like the heroes of the, of the whole story, I think, in fact.
Yeah, he adds a real tragic element because he is so good. [00:52:00] He doesn't, uh, inadvertently allow a mother and a child to die, um, and try to steal their money on the way out.
He doesn't do any of those things. Um, and I think that was the explanation for why he went to the lengths he went. I think they did a good job laying the foundation to explain why a character would go drive to another state, dig up a body, take a rifle, and start murdering people, all for someone that he presumably doesn't really know that well, uh, and something that is very, uh, contrary to the character that we had been introduced to up to that point.
Because he shone enough, or shined, or he was a shiner, he was shiny enough. I can't quite get my mind or my vocabulary around that, but he was shiny enough to tell that Dan is good and should be trusted. Right? And that's, that's apparently an ability. Speaking of the abilities, we had a pusher, right? We had a looker.
Um, looker, I [00:53:00] guess, was that crow who had the ability to kind of hunt people with the shine. We had astral projection, telepathy, telekinetics, precognition, which was described as one possible future in the miniseries. They clarified that there's not one single future. That people with the shine or certain people to shine can see but one possible one.
Um, and there was also the ability to communicate with your past self. There were, there was a possession was introduced to great effect. I love that scene. Yeah,
that was a great scene. Yeah.
So there was a whole. Array of powers. It was a pretty, pretty vast collection. And one thing that bugged me a little bit is it seemed like basically anything that's ever been presented as a psychic ability in any format is now thrown into this grab bag.
Right? There's not really any rules. Just anything goes.
Yeah, that's true. I mean, yeah, yeah. No, I think you're right. I think there's no rules. And also [00:54:00] it seems like, it seems like everything they did was like new to everybody. Right. It's just, even Rose was saying, oh yeah, no, and she's presumably lived, I don't know, a thousand years or whatever.
And you know, cause she was talking to, what is it, the grandpa flick. Yeah. She said, oh yeah, you, you, you, what was it, you, you, you saw, you saw the Romans invade Constantinople or whatever, you know, she was, I guess. They were quite old, uh, and like everything that the Abra was doing, it seemed like, oh, I've never seen that before, you know, it was, it was very, it was weird, you know, like you said, it's a, it's a grab bag, you know, even, even if you have a good feeling about people, that's now shine.
Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, and it seems like a not, not very well defined. I mean, you made a very comprehensive list. But it seemed like there were things, like, some of these, like, tricks they played, like the switching, or, you know, when Abra made them think that she was sitting on the table, but it was [00:55:00] actually a, you know, a stuffed rabbit.
Mm hmm. You know, that, that was really, that was a really good trick, and interesting and clever, but, you know, they were all fooled by it, you know, like, nobody had seen that before, I guess.
Yeah, it was, it was bizarre. It was very much kind of a Wild West when it came to the powers, you know, like anyone can do anything.
And it seemed like Dan was discovering new abilities and that made less sense. It was almost like Abra. Activated him or reactivated him. Um, there was the whole notion that steam fades as you age, but clearly with Dan, it did not. And it wasn't apparent if that was because he was so strong with it to begin with, or because the true not, especially Rose didn't really understand it.
After thousands of years, which I think is really more interesting. Um, she also was surprised, I guess, or unclear what she was dealing with when she was in the overlook.
Right. Yeah. Yeah, [00:56:00] no, no, you're right. I think, you know, I think, I think Danny said it, you know, he said something like, uh, he said it to the crew, I think he said, you know, you're very arrogant, you know, I think if you look at these, these guys seem to only hunt.
Like ten year old or less kids for hundreds of years or thousands of years or however, right? So maybe they're not used to coming up against people who kind of know something about it Sure, you know and I said it sounded like Danny got lucky to find Dick Dick Hallerman and and get some kind of training from somebody to do something about it, but In real life, it would probably be hard for these people to connect unless they're very, very strong.
That's interesting. Probably a lot of the people, they think there's something wrong with them. Oh, fuck, you know, I can see ghosts or I can move things with my mind or, you know, whatever, right? Right. Then they're probably very isolated and maybe they're put in institutions. Uh, so probably it's very easy pickings for this group of the true not, right?
[00:57:00] Yeah. So probably they, they almost never come up with somebody that. Knows how to fight back or realizes that they can fight back
or has developed their abilities
Exactly, and they've gotten arrogant like at all. Yeah. Yeah, and I think I think yeah, I think uh, Denny Denny said it in one of the scenes. I think it was to the crow, but maybe it was to Rose.
I can't recall Yeah. And she, she did, she did say something interesting. She was saying, Oh, it's like, it's like whiskey when she was having his, his tea. Right. Yeah.
Right. Well, so there, you mentioned two things. One is, uh, the crow or what was his name? Something, the crow. Anyway, he didn't have a seatbelt on.
And that was what Dan referred to as arrogant through Abra when he possessed her. And then. took control, uh, of the wheel like, uh, man and drive into a tree, which was amazing. That was like a double I had, I don't recall anyone using two abilities simultaneously. Yeah. Uh, and so that was fascinating. It was [00:58:00] like Dan used Abra to, to do an ability or to use one of her abilities on him, which was.
So that was so exciting and so cool. Um, but, uh, the other thing you mentioned there was Rose being surprised that Dan had steam and that the steam wasn't bad. Yeah, which again, sort of fits with your point of they'd been preying on Children for so long that they didn't know what was out there. And they, maybe because of their limitations of what they are now, they can't even really develop their abilities.
And they're locked into whatever ability they had developed up to the point when they were turned. And maybe that's all they have, or maybe, in Rose's case, they could do a little more if they had a little more steam to begin with, or a little, they were a little more clever. But, in all that time, they had obviously not encountered...
A lot of these abilities or had dealt with people who developed them. [00:59:00]
Yeah, I mean, this, this, this must be the case. I think there's no other, and even, you know, you see, it was that, that scene where Rose is, is facing Danny, you know, they, she kind of says it's gross, right? Like, Oh, you're, you're covered with oil.
Your steam is disgusting. And then she started drinking it So I think, uh, you know, she obviously didn't have much experience with it. So it's, it's a. I love it. I mean, maybe she had like the people in the hospice, you know, they have a little bit of steam come out. She tried it. It was like, that's gross. Uh, maybe, maybe something like that.
I'm not, I'm not sure.
Well, it's exciting because it opens up a lot of possibilities, you know, and it means that we're not trapped with what they said or by what they said, which is as you get older. You lose it, right? So any further stories in this universe would need to be about children. That's not the case anymore.
It's not the case, but uh, But I think that's one of those things, like if you don't, I think when [01:00:00] you're a kid, and you're changing and growing. You're more likely to, and you don't have any preconceived notions about what is and isn't possible. You're more likely to, to discover or to have this thing happen.
And as you get older, you push, push down these things and you say, Oh no, that's not possible. Or you, you, you chalk it up to luck or coincidence rather than saying, Oh, I've got the ability to read somebody's mind or whatever. Uh
huh. So if you don't use your steam, you lose it.
Not, not lose it, but you, you, you, you, You push it down, you know, you don't, okay,
you, your steam is less
accessible.
Yeah. But you say like, I can't do that because science says, no, you know, I think it's one of those things like, Oh, I'm an adult now. I'm not scared of the dark anymore. And also I don't have superpowers, right? Like, uh, I can't fly or bend spoons with my mind, you know, because I can't, you know, so I think [01:01:00] you just, you lock yourself into what you can and can't do because your mind gets more set as you get older.
Hmm. And, and, you know, Danny's, Danny's just not done it because he's afraid of it. You know, and I think he's afraid of what happens.
Yeah, and because he had an experience. He had a little bit of a mentor. Or I guess a mentor who stayed with him. Yeah. Because he did. And so, he had that, and he had an experience with the supernatural that then, in accordance with your theory, which I really love, kept his mind open.
And aware of these possibilities and kept his steam from being suppressed. Uh, even though he suppressed his shine to some extent with alcohol and for self or I guess, self
abuse, does that fit? Yeah, I think so. I think so. What I thought was interesting though, was. It seemed the alcohol didn't necessarily repress it, it [01:02:00] just made it unfocused and made him kind of forget.
Yeah, but I thought he would have more problem when he went sober. Like, this is something they didn't really focus on. True. Like, I thought he would have more, like, run ins with ghosts or whatever, premonitions. Yeah, yeah. When he was sober, but it just seemed like he just tuned it out, he tried not to listen.
Interesting. So one of the interesting questions, one of the ideas in the film that I wanted to ask you about was this statement that there is not as much steam in the modern world, that it's harder to come by. And I think you've already answered why that is.
What do you think? Actually, I thought that that line was very, very interesting.
I actually, I think. The, the crow, he seemed to be the, one of the most perceptive and kind of intelligent of, of the group. I mean, he was one of the last to make it and Rose was obviously very arrogant because she's the most [01:03:00] powerful by far. Uh, but he was like the most sensible one. He's always saying things, you know, that made sense.
And like, Hey, you know, be careful because this, you're taking a lot of risk. You need to think about it. Uh, I, I liked his character a lot, actually. Um, yeah, but honestly, yeah, not, not just steam, but I think in life, like creativity and I don't know, intelligence, uh, it seems like that's getting less in the world as well.
Right. And, and I think the was, if I recall correctly, the reasons the crow gave was like, because Netflix, because, because like. These SNS apps because like people use their smartphones too much. You know, it's the waves, like there's less steam in the world. I think, I think he's just trying to say something that we all relate to is.
It looks like, you know, from, uh, okay, let's, let's face it. Uh, I'm, I'm a certain age, same age as [01:04:00] Danny, uh, you know, and also I'm probably what, same age as the guy that played, uh, uh, played Jack, played, uh, played the father, right. The, you know, it was the boy from, no, it was the boy from, uh, from ET, right. That played, uh, that played the father in the movie, right.
Elliot. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's funny. Right. It's a big circle for him. Quite interesting. Uh, but I got off track. I think, I think all of us can relate to this where, where you think, Oh, you know, there's less intelligence in the world, there's less creativity, there's less, you know, like people going outside and living their lives because they're stuck looking at their phone or they're looking at Netflix or they're watching too many movies as we are.
Uh, you know, I think, I think you losing something. I mean, and I think everybody in the world these days can probably relate to this. So I think this is something. [01:05:00] Quite interesting they throw into the movie. There's less steam in the world. I think they're saying there's less spirit There's less soul if we agree that the steam is spirit and soul No, I I guess it's probably true.
I mean these guys are starving and and here's Roses looking so I got the impression they ate better in the past, right? It seems like they had more meals more often with better quality in the past hundreds of years And then now it's getting harder and harder And she's on the top of the bus every night looking for the whale.
Right, looking for that one big catch that they can live off of for quite a long time. And if you look at their steam containers, I recall there was only like three. Mm hmm. And they open one, and then in the last, kind of the last part of the movie, the rose eats the two. Containers at once. So they were getting very low.
Anyway, what do you, what do you think? What do you think? I think, I think,
uh, you're dead on. I think spirit is a much better [01:06:00] word than soul. And I think your point is that these things that they mentioned and many other things that we're aware of either consciously or on some level are dulling our spirits and collectively or our collective spirit.
And as a result, there's not as much steam in the world. It also helps me understand theoretically why pain and fear purify steam because they awaken the spirit, right? Facing a death in that way is the exact opposite of staring at your phone and opening an app. You've opened the 50th time in the last hour and looking at something that has a list that hasn't even refreshed.
You know, like that is pain and fear of the type they demonstrated with that small boy, the baseball boy. It's exactly the opposite of that. And I can understand why it would purify it in a way, or certainly activate it. Um, so I think that's... I think he nailed it. I think, I think we can, we can all go to sleep now.
I'm just
starting my day. [01:07:00] All right, so I have one more question. Actually, I have two more questions. I have one more question, though that's a big question. All right, so in this film we have psychic abilities, we have vampires, right? What, if any, are the creative ideas in
this movie? Ah, okay. That's interesting.
From, from my point of view, if we talk about what's, what's the kind of creative thematic idea. I don't know. I think, I think they're talking about a lot of the things are talking about human connections where you protect people. Right. And I think like one of the, I don't know, this is the way you were going with that question.
But like one of the things that Dick was saying to Danny the last time they met was you. Denny says, you know, he actually he's not a nice, he's not that nice a person. Okay, and you can understand why I mean He had a traumatic event when he was a kid He's got these powers that are very unwelcome and he thinks he's doing the best he can to use it [01:08:00] to help people in hospice To have an easy passing.
He thinks that's clearing his soul and giving him some redemption Dick says no, you know, you need to pay it forward and Denny says, you know, why do I have to help Abra? Why do I have to help these people? You know, why can't we just live our life and Let those people go do their thing. And I think, you know, Dick says you, you have to, you have to pay it back.
You know, you have to help people with this. I think that's an interesting message. I think, you know, I think everybody, I think if, if you're, if you're in a, in a bunch in front of a bunch of people and you're asked the question, you know, are you going to help helpless people or innocent people? You're going to say yes.
But I mean, I think in most people's heart of hearts, we're geared towards inaction and self protection and we want to like, uh, hide and. Keep our spirit to ourselves and not waste it on other people. But let it all in the [01:09:00] meantime. Yeah. Yeah, maybe let it all, but at the same time, you know, you, you don't, you don't waste it on things that not, not going to help yourself in a way.
I think everybody is a little bit
greedy. Let me jump in. I think this movie, to your point, says very clearly that we go on. So Dick's message to Dan may seem horribly unfair for someone who has power, who has suffered, who is humble, and uses that power to help others, to ask someone like that to do more.
The question might be why. Based on what you're saying, perhaps it was because we go on and there's more to life. Than just what we experience and what we do when we are living in this one So he was asking Dan to do something that maybe would help him in the next life or the next part of existence But where were you going with
it?
Oh, no, I just I I think it's it's to me I mean, [01:10:00] I think that connects to my point But I I was saying like I think it's it's easy to be an active I think it's easy to to do the minimal and I think It's a reminder, you know, you, if you do more, you can help, you know, and I, and I think that's, that's true. I mean, not, not only with superpowers, but I think anything, it doesn't take that much more effort to help people a lot, you know?
And I think, uh, that, that, that does tie to your point, which is, which is absolutely a true theme from the movie is, you know, there is something after this, you know, there is, you will go on and, you know, are you going to be a ghost in a hotel? They get put in a box, you know, are you going to go to a better place?
It's, uh, it's not really, you know, it's, it's kind of up to you is what I understood. I mean, they, they weren't really saying there was a heaven or hell, but I think things can be better or worse depending on, you know, what you do in your life.
Absolutely. That's a great thought. So there's been talk about [01:11:00] a prequel following the life of Dick Halloran when he was younger and exploring that a little bit.
Um, that aside. If this property, if the rights to it were dumped in your lap, what would you do next with this universe?
This is tricky because I, now, now there's been a lot of things, uh, done with it. You know, do you go the way of the mini series and just say, forget about that other thing, and look at this, this is the real deal, you know, I don't know.
I know people's a good idea, but I also I think there's a big batch of Danny's life missing, you know, but there's been such a big life, let's say world changing confrontation now between the not the true not and Danny and Abra, I think the most compelling or interesting thing. Okay, Dick would be great because there's must be a lot of story and I want to see more of those.
Velvet paintings with the, you know, [01:12:00] with the Afros and whatever. And he, he looks like a very compelling character that, that was, you know, in the movie world was kind of cut short. He always got the quick. Just quickly shuffled off set, you know, too fast, right? Getting the axe to the chest or, you know, he's getting tired in the dreamland and this is his last time.
Yeah. Uh, you know, so there's definitely more story there. I don't know how compelling it would be. I'm interested to see what happens in Danny between the time he's a little boy and the time that he's a 30 something year old man. That could be very interesting. You know, like, like you say in the mini series, talking back to his younger self, or finding, maybe he did find out more about his abilities, and maybe it scared him, and that's why he went to alcohol.
You know, we don't know. Uh, but I think the most compelling would be what happens now. Because I think one thing Rose alluded to was, uh, they said, oh, you're the last one, and she said, no, I'm not the last one. [01:13:00] Mm hmm. You know, what does she mean? You know, we thought the true not was it, you know, but they said something about like, uh, they came, what was it?
They, they were in Asia. They wrote across Europe. They came across to the new world, you know, they apparently these guys were everywhere, right? Yeah, so I think that would be, uh, the most interesting way to take it was, like, what happens next.
Well, it's complicated. So thematically, I would absolutely want to follow your ideas about the spirit, right?
So, you know, at the core, I hate prequels. I'm just going to say it. I'm sorry, Star Wars burned me. Don't like prequels anymore. Sequels, I like. If we did a sequel, I'm good with spinoffs, I'm good with TV series, I'm good with anything, but what I would want to see thematically is that it follows the idea of how we treat our spirit, and how that affects us, both in this world and the next world, how it affects others, how spirits [01:14:00] interact, I would be interested in seeing how steam You know, between individuals, if it does, or shine, if it does, or manifests between individuals.
I think those things would be interesting. I also really found it interesting that the idea that the hotel. Shines just like people do, which in my mind opens up a big world where many things can shine for different reasons, maybe, or for related reasons that aren't always the same. Um, I don't, I don't. I can think of potentially a lot of other types of predators of Shine or a lot of other types of symbiotic or parasitic relationships with Shine, uh, almost like an ecosystem or steam, I should say.
Yeah, think about Christine. But I love, I love all that stuff. And I think as long as you stick to the thematic idea of the spirit and... [01:15:00] understanding how our choices affect our spirit, what it does to us, and how, what that means for us in the present, the future, and after we're gone, then I think you can do a lot of really exciting, really cool things.
And apparently it, there's an unlimited number of psychic abilities, but you can play with two if you want to. I think it's nice to take a break because this universe is heavy and when you do films, it can be pretty intense, but obviously the right story came around and it wasn't just Abra older kind of reliving some version of this slightly different.
If it wasn't, uh, you know, ghost of Dan. Uh, then, you know, yeah, I, I guess I'd be fine with a sequel, although I, I did like all those characters, I just don't think it would be, it'd be really hard to do them justice. Uh, I think if this movie had come out five years or two years after The Shining, uh, then I think it would have felt weird to have [01:16:00] Jack Nicholson in some scenes and, you know, I guess 15 years after The Shining so that Danny could be an adult, but I still think it would have felt weird.
Yeah, I agree. Yeah. So I don't think I would necessarily do another film, maybe not right away, maybe not with the same characters or the same actors, but I think there's, this is a rich universe to explore. All right. Well, thank you. Any other thoughts before we wrap it up?
Well, I think something we didn't cover.
What about the bad?
Other than this, the heart thumping soundtrack, what would you say was the bad
of the movie? No, because I was, I was wondering, because I, I was, I told some friends, like I told you, this is quite good movie. And then some, some people, I don't know, I had negative reactions. I saw some reviews that were not great.
So I wanted to know more, I looked at it, and I think what they were saying was like, oh, basically the whole scene with the hotel was not in the book, because obviously the hotel was destroyed in the first book. And then some of [01:17:00] the things I was looking at called, like, that whole scene in the hotel was kind of fan service, basically.
Which scene? Like, the finale? I mean, the whole, the whole thing. Because basically the, I mean, think about the book had no hotel, I don't know where they faced Rose. In the
ruins of the hotel. Yeah. It's an
RV park in the ruins of the hotel. So it's quite, so it's quite a similar thing. Yeah, it is. But, uh, no, but I, they, they did go a little heavy.
I mean, they did a great job. I mean, to be honest, I mean, when I watched the kind of behind the scenes, I mean, uh, actually I think one of the reasons that the director did this movie is he wanted to recreate that hotel and like play around in the space and like do the filming and, and kind of be like Kubrick.
Like it was, uh. And when I, when I rewatched the movie, I did see actually, yeah, that was very fan service y, you know, it was really, it was kind of [01:18:00] almost looked like it was just stuck in to the movie a little bit, like it interrupted the flow, like, hey, let's stop what we're doing and drive to Colorado, you know, and, you know, I guess they did that in the book anyway, but it just, it seemed to be very, it changed the whole space, like the, The whole movie was kind of like, open world, like we're here, we're there, we're going back and forth.
And that one, it locked it down inside the hotel, inside this like, demon building. And uh, so I thought, it was, somehow it uh, it did hurt the flow. It did hurt the flow of the movie, and I think it was very fan service. I mean, but they did a great job. I mean, it looked, it looked amazing. Especially when, when Danny's going around on his little bike around the, around the halls, I mean.
You, you couldn't tell that it was a different place, or you couldn't tell it was a new set at all. Like it was very well done.
Yeah, I thought it was jarring when I realized, the moment I realized they were going back to the hotel. I, I do agree. It was, it was a bit [01:19:00] jarring, but it teetered on the edge for me and ultimately tipped over to acceptable because it was explained.
It made sense. Like he made a choice. It was a tactical decision. It was a questionable one. Sure, we can debate it, but I get why he did that. I think. Um, from the story. And so I was fine with it. I, I thought it in, in the end, I was enjoying the ride so much that I was willing to accept that. But you're right.
It was a bit jarring and it did teeter. But I think it was okay. I think another thing that helped me a lot that I forgot to mention is I watched this movie in three chunks. Uh, over a day and a half, you know, but I watched about 30, 40 minutes of it, took a break next day, watched another 30 minutes or so, and then finished it, um, I think later that night or the next day.
And that actually really helped because I felt like I had more energy. I wasn't as worn down. by the story, which can [01:20:00] be a little bit thick. It's kind of heavy, it's a little bit dark. Uh, it's interesting, and it's a good ride, but it's not exactly like a fun, thrill ride.
Yeah, you're right. I mean, and it's such a crazy long movie.
I think after an hour and a half, and especially after the scene with the baseball kid, like, yeah, I mean, it's hard to focus and pay attention that long. Pay attention to all the people and absorbs a lot. Yeah, exactly. And And it goes so many places, like it's all kind of
all over the place. Yeah. And it touches on important things only briefly, several times.
And if you have a little bit of time to catch your breath and think about it, then before you move on to the next chunk, then it gave me a chance to kind of realize some things and then go into the next section. More ready for what was going to happen and feeling like I had a richer context, which is, I guess, an argument for this to be a miniseries, right?
That's what they should have done. ABC miniseries.
Yeah, agreed. I don't know, but there's all these, like, uh, [01:21:00] there's all these streaming services now. I mean, one of them should pick this up and chunk it. Yeah. Yeah. Chunk. Chunk. Yeah,
exactly. I think for a second, we almost talked ourselves back into making another miniseries out of this one.
Just like they tried in 1997.
Just got to get a recovering porn star in it, and then you're all good. Listen, she
was fabulous. She is such a great actress. She walked the line between strong and vulnerable, like in a believable human way that is so, so much better than the Kubrick movie. I'm telling you, her performance almost makes it worth sitting through all those commercials for Zyrtec.
And that's true, actually. I mean, there's a lot written about the original movie, like what they did to the actress, uh, who played the mother originally. I mean, it's like quite disturbing the way they treated her, but, and also like, it's quite different from the book as I understood too. Like she's just, it is, she's basically just a very weak, weak character in the movie.[01:22:00]
Yeah, she's a true victim, in my opinion, throughout most of the film, and the miniseries could not be more different. She is honestly the hero, um, and she, she waits just a little too long, like her instinct for survival kicks in just a little bit too late. But it's very clear that it's because she's still in love with the man that her husband used to be, that she thinks he still is.
And I guess at the end of the miniseries, there's a moment of redemption and where he is that person again, briefly. But honestly, like, it's such, it's such a believable, uh, arc for her, a journey for her through the film. So much, through the miniseries, so much better. That character, no doubt is better would not have fit probably in the Kubrick film, but really, really good.
And I don't know how much of that is writing, how much of that is Rebecca de Mornay, but she really, really crushes it. Like it was great to see her in fine form [01:23:00] and it made me question why she isn't an A list actress or considered one, at least from what I understand, not making big budget films. I'm not sure.
I took a look. She, she's done a lot. She's been working consistently. She did a lot. Yeah. She, she's in, uh, she was in Jessica Jones not too long ago. She had a part in that. I think part of the problem might be she's not recognizable, but I'm not sure. I don't know. She's clearly, she was at least in 1997, extremely talented and brought in a great
performer.
No, I think she was good. I was making light, but, uh, I think she was talented.
Surprisingly. No, I'm agreeing with you. Like I was, I, I saw it. I watched this miniseries before and I remember Hand that Rocks the Cradle, I believe was one of her breakthrough roles. She was great in that and I was still surprised repeatedly throughout the mini series of how good she was.
It's probably part of how I made it through my 100th Lisa Saturn commercial. I'm just not used to that many commercials. It was a, it was a rough ride. [01:24:00] Um, all right, good. Anything else that you
wanted to touch on? No, that's it. I mean, thank you. Thank you for doing this with me. It's quite a, quite enjoyable experience.
Oh, thank you. I really appreciate it. And I hope everybody enjoyed this as much as I did. So good luck with your retirement. Yeah, I'm
trying, trying to keep it clean, trying to get my spirit high.
That's right. Keep your steam clean. That's,
that's my new thing. That's right. Steam clean. I'm going to steam clean.
All right. So for the rest of you, just a reminder that I'm always looking for good recommendations. My only rules are first. Has to be fiction. And second, it needs to be complete. I want a whole story, no partial stories, nothing halfway through being released. I want to be able to judge and discuss the creative ideas, uh, within the full context of a released project.
If you do recommend something, let me know what aspects you found most creative and most interesting. I hope you guys all have a great week and I'll see you next time. Thanks Jason. [01:25:00]
Bye.