In this disturbing episode, our hosts navigate the secrets and supernatural themes of the 2009 Japanese horror film Occult. Exploring the film's enigmatic narrative and its impact on the horror genre, our hosts open all the mystery boxes and spoil the mysterious elements that make Occult a standout in the realm of J-horror. If you thought Pulse was thought-provoking, then this movie is not to be missed. Stick around to the end of the episode for an interesting discussion of Japan's Cyber Homeless.
In this disturbing episode, our hosts navigate the secrets and supernatural themes of the 2009 Japanese horror film Occult. Exploring the film's enigmatic narrative and its impact on the horror genre, our hosts open all the mystery boxes and spoil the mysterious elements that make Occult a standout in the realm of J-horror. If you thought Pulse was thought-provoking, then this movie is not to be missed. Stick around to the end of the episode for an interesting discussion of Japan's Cyber Homeless.
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[Music] welcome to don't encourage us the show where we talk about the Big Ideas behind fiction projects of all different kinds books movies TV shows video games nothing's off limits I'm your host Bob McKenzie and I'm here with my brother Doug how's it going a no doing great a So today we're going to discuss the 2009 Japanese horror film Ault but first what's been on your list this we week um I started watching season 2 of rings of power ooh is that out oh I didn't realize it okay yeah uh no I'm sorry not rings of power I made a mistake there Wheel of Time they're so similar oh yeah I think Wheel of Time wishes it was rings of power but yeah how's it going I think you're right it's it's pretty slowo it's um there are a lot of different characters there's a lot of talk about um magical Concepts and in place that you know nothing about without a lot of context and it's it's a little convoluted I guess it's a book series by Robert Jordan so they need to squeeze a lot in yeah to the seasons and I think they're squeezing too much in because there's so much Exposition in those first two episodes I don't know I might give it a chance but I might just stop it at some point if it doesn't pick up a little more you know there's a lot of characters sitting around campfires discussing like the you know the old days of Magic versus now etc etc it's just it's getting a little a little boring yeah that's unfortunate yeah otherwise is it good or anything about it that you particularly like I mean I think the acting is really good I think Roseman Pike is a really great actress so whenever her scenes come on they're a lot more interesting I think than some of the other characters though the other characters are are really good as well but I think she has like a really good Charisma to be like the leading leading character of the series but maybe it'll pick up the first season seemed to be similar I watched the first season and I actually enjoyed it by the end but it took a while to get to really understand what was going on you know where things really started coming together that could be the case with this one too maybe maybe it's something worth giving a chance yeah that's good well I hope so because I think a lot of people started it in season 1 and then bailed on it that was sort of the internet chatter that I saw um so it's good to hear that season one kind of pulled out uh pulled out of a dive and was pretty good so hopefully season two they learned some lessons maybe they're just laying some groundwork now and then they'll they'll get to even higher levels by the end of this season it's also nice to see that Amazon didn't cancel it because that's been the trend lately uh luckily a couple of these streaming services have deep Deep Pockets you know because that's not how they make their money so Amazon I guess can afford to invest in two or more seasons of something and see if it gets to the point where it gets good whereas a lot of these other services uh these other companies can't really afford that so I think what is it apple and Amazon are really the only two that that have uh you know for them streaming is just like a little tiny scribble on their their balance sheet right it's not really much to them so yeah so I guess Wheel of Time benefited from that they really didn't promote Wheel of Time season two very much at all I kind of stumbled on it it's something i' previously watched which is probably a good indicator that they're not putting that much behind it like they were around season one sure I'm really looking forward to Outlaws have you seen that series Steven Merchant it's a comedy oh no way yeah they're on Believe season what is It season three or four now really and yeah it's really well done it's about a community service group in England oh I have heard of this yes okay Christopher Watkins in it the cast is great The Chemistry Between the cast and they find a bunch of money and that causes all types of hilarious scenarios like it's it's really really good they got they really did a great job of it and they just keep renewing it so I think it was a big hit hit for uh for Amazon I think it was originally a BBC thing uh but then it it ended up on Prime so I guess they they might have bought it out and refin aned it but it's definitely worth taking a look at cuz he's just so talented like a great writer yeah he's so great like so funny all his stuff I've been disappointed every time one of his shows has been cancelled it just blows my mind because there's so he he's got so much Charisma he's so funny he's got great timing you know he really elevates the performances of actors around him and actually makes them seem funny too like just really great stuff what what's that show called hello ladies I think where he's he's a single guy in La that was amazing that was such a good show I can't believe that guy cancelled I know I it's it's really sad cuz I mean it's it's really high quality I'm glad that the Outlaws is is a thing now yeah because it's it's great you could binge watch that show no problem yeah that happens a lot like when you think an actor is particularly good or someone was very good in a series or in a movie and then you don't hear anything from them for a while and then you realize oh no they've been acting they're on season seven of some show that you've you don't watch you know but that's been great great for them like was it Bert Reynolds no um Tom celic Tom celik's been on Blue Bloods for like 15 years or something like he's doing and no one has any idea yeah they're like nobody on on America's coasts has any idea what happened there's there's a lot of shows like that right like that NCIS show wasn't that one of those shows that's been on for like 30 years but no one really really ever talks about it yeah I guess it's but it's a hit absolutely it's the same thing it's um H what is it what's that actor from Quantum Leap uh Scott bacula Scott bacula thank you I I love doing the show with you your brain faster than Wikipedia completely useless information but yeah uh I would ask you what year he was born and graduated from college but I don't want to waste the listener's time so you hold on to those facts um so yeah he's been on NCIS uh I don't know which one like NCIS Toronto or whatever it is yeah for years for years when you said quantum leaf I just thought to myself huh he stopped acting after quantum leaf that's a shame because he was pretty good I me don't I hope Scott bachula I'm sorry if you're listening to this right now we just had no idea and I'm sure he is listening so it's good thing that's a very sincere apology Scott I want to apologize for my co-host over there uh yeah no so he did uh Star Trek Enterprise for I want to say five or so years and then moved on to the more successful NCIS I don't quote me on that it's one of those crime dramas but he's been doing it for a while he'll let us know in the comments is scottyb quantum NCIS just text me backman come on
now well speaking of Amazon I just finished season one of the terminal List have you heard about this have you seen this yeah with uh Chris Pratt Chris Pratt yeah so I just picked it up out of curiosity it looked like you know Chris Pratt doing the TV show for Amazon I figure hey it's probably pretty well written otherwise why would Chris Pratt's agents or handlers allow him to do this um but I it hadn't really gotten a lot of press at least not in my circles or the parts of the internet the dark web where I go um but it was it was really really good like really good like I watched Reacher we talked about that a while ago it's very similar it is even better than that it's spectacular yeah I was thinking about checking it out but I heard that it was a novel so I was thinking about reading the novel it's a book series I got into that yeah written by nav seal or former Navy SEAL Jack Carr it's right up my alley I really as listeners know I'm a big fan of those um spy like Special Forces CIA thriller books the Season One S of the series is spectacular it is so so well done he's uh kind of a Punisher slm Bolan type and I'm not going to spoil anything because you're probably are going to read the series um but if you if you read any of the books come back and talk about it because I thought this was going to be fine I was like yeah whatever I you know just something to watch I'll check it out I like chrispratt and the first episode I was like yeah it's fine whatever it's just kind of typical military culture stuff like nothing nothing really amazing it was well done but didn't grab me but I think it was about halfway through the second episode or maybe towards the end I was like you know now I'm kind of interested and then the third one I was like whooo okay and it just kept picking up interest like intensity for me and so I was watching the next episode like sooner and longer and doing longer spurts of watching and more and more and more and all the way up to the very end it just continued just in this upward trajectory so oh wow yeah you might have to give it a little bit of time uh if you decide to watch the series in order to let it hook you but it's worth it it's worth the investment it's really really good so I love it yeah yeah I'll check it out I'll probably start with a novel just cuz I really love reading those types of books and then I'll check out check out the series and see how it Compares well yeah and then if you like the novel maybe you can read the second one uh the third one fourth one I think there's five or six of them and come back and report on that a little bit I will have you checked out the uh greyman Series yeah no I I need to watch that on Netflix or read the first book listen at three times the speed or [Laughter] whatever highly suggest reading it I've seen the uh the movie and the uh and read the books at this point I think I'm on book 10 of the series or something I love them they're they're really great that in those um Daniel Silva books yeah big fan you're like Johnny neonic over there just like jacking into the audio books like downloaded it's like Koo from the Matrix I I know the [Laughter] gyman downloaded downloaded next oh this one says the greyman series and Kung
Fu so why I learn all my random facts totally useless but yeah that explains so much if you have a data port in the back of your head downloading nonsense nothing that can be used for good just like random Scott back facts yeah I'm waiting for that uh Jeopardy
category celebrity birth dates Scott bacula
popere greyman book [Laughter] four Smart Cuts Alex I'll take Smart Cuts for 200 useless facts for a thousand double or nothing all right so should we talk about this fabulous film that I'm sure you loved a cult let's yeah let's get into it jorr yep back to the Jor so this is uh came out in 2009 it was written and directed by Koji shirashi Shiri what do you think is that close sure okay uh it's Stars Cohen condo as shohi Eno I'm butchering these names it's uh so proud I'm so proud of that Koji shirashi plays himself in this movie did you notice that were you able to pick that out that he that the director the writer was playing himself in this movie did that come through yeah it actually did okay good so I think he was trying to add to the realism and I don't know what level of celebrity he has but he was essentially playing a version of himself and we'll talk about about why but I didn't pick up on that initially and he's not I don't think he was the center of the focus that much so it was a he was intentionally sort of a little bit offscreen some of the time but yeah I picked up on it during one of the subtitles where it kind of like the actual title card not the act the subtitles where I was like oh wait a minute it's the director now like we're kind of Shifting shifting Focus for a second but yeah yeah good catch right so kind of a clever idea there like you make a found footage mockumentary and you put yourself in it because you're presumably a known director so it would make sense and it's in a genre consistent with films you've made before in this case uh sort of sci-fi Supernatural uh so then why wouldn't he be interested in in doing a documentary about something like that so kind of cool uh I could not find anything on the budget for this one it's definitely a micro budget film did you find anything on earnings or budget I didn't I looked cuz I want was curious to see if it was one of like a Blair Witch type of situation made for $1,000 made 200 million you know right but I didn't see anything no I don't think it reached that level of success and I think pulse is kind of a good touch tone for this one uh the original Japanese version that we talked about before in a previous episode um so I I think it was probably cheaper to make even than that but I don't think it reached the level of a claim um a good question people often ask is how did I find this movie you've asked me that before and this one popped up on one of those lists of films kind of like one cut of the Dead which we talked about a while ago great great film by the way go watch that but um this popped up on one of those lists and the person who reviewed it said look it's not it's not as good um as some of these other films but it's interesting and it's got some really great elements to it so I think that's sort of indicative of the fan base like I think some people really really love this movie because they respond positively to what the director was trying to do in part right and I think other people probably really don't like this movie because the reviews were sort of mixed bag right um and I can understand why like parts of it work very well and parts of it don't did you have any thoughts about that I just want to make a comment overall even if I don't really love this genre of movie this kind of found footage genre I think one of the really positives about is that it makes film making seem very accessible to the average person yes and that I can really appreciate so while I'm watching it I I think to myself well this is something I could make and maybe I could make it better without having like a huge amount of resources so there's a lot of creativity that goes into making a movie like this even if I think there are problems with the plot or I don't like certain aspects of it that's you know I really enjoy that part yeah absolutely and that's really well put cuz I had the same reaction throughout and it kept me engaged even during parts that otherwise might not have so really enjoyable and if you're at all interested in making a film or what it would be like to make a film and thinking about how people have done that um this is an excellent movie to watch for sure just makes you feel as if it's something you can do it's something you get a bunch of friends together put a you know story line together and and just get to work and have something tangible yeah absolutely uh it's almost surprising more people don't do that because the equipment available now is you know I don't know Generations better and easier to manage uh on every at every stage of production than even in 2009 mhm absolutely all right so this is a mockumentary horror film about an investigation into a public stabbing spree that reveals a larger Supernatural mystery anything you would change or tweak about that description no I think that's yeah overall I think that's that's a good one because you don't there's no spoilers there for sure yeah definitely and I think that's important because enjoying this movie uh really hinges on not being spoiled uh that's not true I guess you could enjoy it from the perspective you were articulating as a you know interest in how someone can make a movie without millions of dollars regardless if if you know what's going to happen or what is happening um but if you're going to enjoy the story part of it I do think it's really important that you not be spoiled so if you're interested in this film this is a great place to pause the episode you know delete it throw your phone into the ocean go watch a Colt never come back uh but if you want to hear what a couple idiots say about it you can Circle back and you know get your phone out dry it out and uh listen to the rest of the episode so that being said I can't wait to hear your short spoiler-free summary what you got for me there's some footage that you see in the beginning of these people who are on a bridge there's a they're just having a good time they're visiting this like really beautiful area near the ocean near the coastline and you suddenly there's a stabbing on the bridge so three people gets stabbed on this bridge Panic ensues the killer ends up jumping off a rock disappears don't see anything after that um then you realize what you're watching is a documentary about the events that actually occurred so as a movie goes forward you start understanding you know what's happening a lot more clearly they start interviewing people who knew the the people on the bridge and then the story takes a turn and starts focusing on someone who was stabbed but not killed and you realize that this person actually had a carving put onto their back by the killer so the mystery becomes why did this happen who is this person and why were why were they not stabbed to death so the producers of the movie start working with this person trying to investigate what might be happening in terms of you know where is this killer from and they learned that he had a birth mark that had the same symbol that he carved into the back of this this person's back and little by little you start seeing just really odd things about the the guy who was who was stabbed but not killed and it turns out that he's claiming that he's he makes no money he sleeps in an internet cafe he he feels like there's some mission that he has to go on but you're not quite sure if this guy's completely insane or what's happening and as the movie goes on you start un they start uncovering the fact that these symbols are a lot more significant that you might than you might think and there's Supernatural phenomenon that are that's occurring that this guy claimes to have seen so the filmmakers are give him a camera in order to record this phenomenon because they don't really believe him in the first place in exchange for that he gets to stay in the producer's office and I don't want don't want to ruin the end but basically you start realizing that he may be telling the truth and that he's not just completely insane after all yeah that's good so in a nutshell the director plays himself as a filmmaker who's making a documentary about a stabbing at a vacation resort that had some weird mysteries to it and just like the TV show Lost Their investigation reveals more and more Mysteries and coincidences and they capture some odd phenomenon on film at times and it kind of keeps them going and then the investigation itself kind of goes off the rails and then it all leads to a stunning conclusion so one of the things I really liked about this film uh was that you didn't really know at least for about the first hour hour and 10 minutes you didn't know if it was aliens kind of Science Fiction stuff cuz they they do bring that in you didn't know if it was like magic or mysticism or something like that so I really loved that I had no idea which way it was going to go like I kept thinking like okay so the aliens came and got the first guy who stabbed people on the bridge and that's why they never found his body um so that's what they picked up in the background on the film but it was kind of hard to tell what that was and I wasn't sure and and then later when uh like the rapper there's a scene where they're eating and this rapper flies off a table a couple times and there were similar things of like or similar instances of things like sort of getting knocked over or flying a short distance and I was like okay so it's like psychic phenomenon they're going to go with like these people have psychic powers but then that doesn't really fit so how does that work and then there was the whole like talk about a God you know the like offspring of two gods and how that didn't have limbs so they called him the leeched child uh so I was like whoa so we're going with more of a spiritual mysticism kind of thing so I really enjoyed that back and forth it was really fun and to not know the genre did you pick up on that at all I really like the fact that it like confuse me like I didn't really know what was going on like you said that it was the mysticism part that they mentioned UFOs but really early on I really believed what this guy was saying they put you in a position where you're supposed to be in the you know in the shoes of The Producers not really believing but I believe from the GetGo like there's something else that's going on here that's much bigger than than what they're saying even though that actor was great at playing someone who's completely unhinged and I really enjoyed he is famous is he he's a yep Co Cohen condo or k condo uh he's a very popular Japanese actor now and he is very good in this film absolutely yeah he was he really really kept you guessing that's why I really enjoy this movie much more than pulsed it really there are a lot of really good good twists in this one that kind of drove the plot forward yeah even though you know like I mentioned before I'm not a big fan of this kind of found footage style I think in this case it worked because it kept you guessing between the UFOs the mysticism the idea that there's this God who's kind of commanding all these things to happen one thing I didn't really understand was you know the reason why did they really jump into why this God might be forcing them to do it was almost like he was just wanted these people to do it to kill people on its behalf you know so yeah we can skip to the end for a second I think I guess that's a good time to do that actually let's hold off on that I want to talk about the but let's talk about a couple other things first we'll Circle back and I'll try to answer that question the best I can so in addition to not knowing the genre of the film and the little Mysteries that they plant throughout like the you know nature of the scar and the relationship between some of the uh dreams and other experiences that characters had like I thought that was a lot of fun but I also really like the introduction of the character you were just talking about I'm going to call him Eno I think that's his last name they call him like Enos son or something like that through a lot of the film um and that actor like you said is really really good and he plays a character who is both sort of pitiful but also a little bit ominous and it's really interesting how and I think somewhat some of this is cultural and some of this is just human it's like Universal but he sort of plays on your sympathy and you find yourself or the the characters in the film find themselves crossing boundaries a little bit like taking risks because they feel sorry for them but also because they're motivated by their own greed to get the footage they want like they want images of these Miracles that he talks about that he experiences all the time and they don't want to follow him 247 so this idea that like you know we'll pay him to carry the camera and then he's like well so can I stay in your office then since I'm B basically homeless like you know since since you're paying me anyway and that it'll make it much easier for me to capture these Miracles and I'll do a very good job and then they you know it's almost like he's sort of tricking them but not really because it's a reasonable request if you're in a bad position and I watched them the characters debate letting him do that and I was like this feels like a very significant turning point in the film you know previously the film was very much about interviewing different people and the filmmakers had that insulation like they were safe because even though the people they were interviewing were going through scary weird things the people filming were removed but then that's the point where I think it crossed that line and it felt like they were vulnerable they have this guy staying in their office they're they're tied to him like he's ingratiating himself that's an interesting point because that's basically the The Stance at the female producer had taken in all of this right that she was very disconnected from who she was interviewing and this ominous character you know he calls her out on that yeah which I I found a very very fascinating thing to do in the movie was almost like this is the person that could be a threat to himh because she's so disconnected he can't pull her into his orbit and it was very frustrating for him yes but it was almost like he could manipulate the other to even though he doesn't end up manipulating them in the way that you think he might but that was a great scene cuz she was sitting around a table so just to set the scene up she's sitting around a table and they're drinking beers or whatever and she's kind of off on her own not talking to anyone and this Eno character confronts her about it why are you so disconnected from us you disconnect yourself from characters that you're interviewing as well you're emotionless that's why you don't have a boyfriend Etc to see if he can kind of lure her into or what I think he's trying to do really kind of get her into the circle with the rest of them and she decides to leave early she just goes home she's not you know playing that game with him and I like that yeah yeah it was a big turning point in the film because prior to that it was you know lost it was just pieces of a puzzle you're trying to assemble and then it the film really settles on what it'll be for the rest of it which is a much tighter character exploration of the relationships you know and that's that scene that moment in that scene was a bit odd to me at first it was it seemed almost random but I I realized exactly what you're saying as time went on that she was a a threat essentially U because he could not manipulate her like he could she wasn't as vulnerable to him but how does that fit into his motivations who is he really is he a victim is he a perpetrator like that mystery continues on until very very far into the film so interesting really good stuff do you think that it made a lot of sense the way that the kind of secondary character the producer kind of fell into the role of a collaborator up until the very end I thought he might be sabotaging the mission which is a great good thing on the on behalf of the the film to make me think that yeah they did a really good job so pretty late in the film it comes out that you know does have a plan and he is up to no good and this uh one of the filmmakers gets you know involved like he's been sort of pulled into Eno's orbit as you've said but he's not insane so he wants to stop this plan then he has a supernatural experience which he catches on camera which then makes him doubt his decision and makes him go along with the plan but it's really not clear if he's planning to sabotage it and try to stop Eno or if he really is now like a True Believer basically is that what you're talking about yeah I thought he became a True Believer a little bit too abruptly that's I agree with that I I think it was supposed to be this very transformative moment with the supernatural um but be partly because of the special effects and partly because it was relatively short and and they had already been exposed to some of these weird occurrences for him to do such a 180 seemed a little extreme but but he did remain unsure like he makes a lot of comments throughout about like well we don't have to do it today we can do it tomorrow we can go here we can do this instead like maybe we don't have time you know so he's both hesitant and engaged or I I suppose he's just supposed to be a weak character I I don't know that that could have used a little tweaking yeah cu the severity of of what right you know is going to do so extreme the plan especially in Japanese culture yeah yeah so yeah I thought so in terms of J Horror in general what do you know about that genre from what I've read about it it's that it's very cultural and it's very specific to Japan and the way they view ghosts in the afterlife is there anything else that you've read that would be tied into what we saw yeah um a couple things number one uh did you catch Koshi kirisawa in this film that was a surpr yeah that was a surprise for me so the symbologist uh so for the audience who may or may not watch this film there's a point in the movie where the filmmakers are interested in trying to interpret symbols that they find in multiple places so they find the same or similar collections of symbols um one or the first place they find it is it was carved into Eno's back by the original perpetrator the stabber on the bridge so when he caught up with Eno who was a stranger to him at the time on the bridge he knocked him down and he carves symbols into his back but didn't kill him um then later those symbols appear uh as a b birthmark on the or a version of them uh were a birth mark on the stabber the guy who's who carved them um and then there were they pop up on a rock on top of a mountain so the crew confused by this they go to a an expert on symbols of the occult and Supernatural and that is actually uh kioshi kirisawa director of pulse playing himself and they explain that even you know he's famous director and he makes these great movies but he's gotten interested in symbology so he studied on his own they go to his like director's office and he's got a stack of symbology books and he does a nice little whiteboard explanation of what these symbols might mean and tries to interpret them that's the director of plls so presumably the J horror Community is you know fairly tight-knit or connected to each other at least a lowbudget version of that so that was really fun I had no idea I was like that's the director of PSE what do you know that's really interesting all that time we put into that movie that very long very long discussion that we had about it uh starting to pay off so that was a really fun treat yeah full circle yeah exactly so there are a lot of similar elements and I think there's a lot of similar interest from the directors in uh those same elements between pulse and this movie so uh good stuff yeah for sure it's uh it's a genre that I think so movies like The Ring right right really popularized that genre I don't know if there's any recent movie that's been released in America that that is that genre The Grudge is that recent no I don't think so I'm trying to think myself I'm sure there is no I I guess that Niche has been taken over by um the like nun series and The Conjuring and I think that sort of lower budget spiritual horror uh I think that's been occupied at least for a little while I don't know if that's pushed any Japanese remakes out maybe they there were a couple of them that didn't do as well and maybe that kind of resulted in a reduced interest but yeah I can't think of anything lately but there's plenty of material for that and this is a film that you could absolutely remake on at any budget level and uh with some changes I think could be could reach a new level I think with some big stars it would probably be a pretty pretty big hit I would think you know is there anything you would change about this film to help it succeed a little bit more other than casting you know what really took me out the um the sound design I was GNA bring that up I was not I was really not a fan nothing else really bothered me in terms of like technically you know I thought the editing was pretty tight for what you had to work special effects were a little but okay they're a little off but I mean I kind of accepted that but when that music would come on music or musics yeah it was it was painful painful to listen to and it immediately took me out of the story I was like this is just Why why are you doing this it's like a like for for the audience it sounds like just Nails on a chalkboard all of a sudden there's no music there's no soundtrack to this movie and then all we random sounds yeah so funny I don't know why it's like an afterthought it's like an afterthought but I if I feel like all these movies have that in common yeah it seems to uh be a common Trope at least with h this and pulse for sure and if you didn't like the soundtrack and pulse you're going to hate this one because it's way worse it's like an offkey violin that someone's just wagging the uh the bow on and just screeching it's not it doesn't create any tension it just does the complete opposite where you just want to hit mute so distracting yeah and it's not even well timed so it's not like oh an unsettling noise at an unsettling moment it's like the unsettling moment is done and now there's just this random noise of someone dragging a musical instrument down an alley for like a minute it was very odd yeah it was yeah that did not work and that final final scene uh was absolutely horrendous the effect the way they so let's talk about that all right let's talk about the ending all right I liked the ending I know that's hard to believe a lot of people I'm sure really did not like the ending all right so again spoiler warning because we're just going to give away the end the end so Eno our homeless uh Refugee who um has been pulled into he was stabbed in the original stabbing or they carved the image on him he sort of plays dumb he does mention that he's been seeing Miracles we C we see that on film strange things happen all around him it turns out that some voice has been talking to him or talked to him once and told him about a mission and his mission was to kill as many people as he could and that if he did that he would be transported to heaven right so there's no aliens in this it is it is this God this leech god um what Eno has been seen in the sky is often like leeches or jellyfish we're not I don't I never really picked up on why the jellyfish but the leeches I guess are related to this leech God um he makes a bomb uh like a suicide vest he puts a bunch of C4 and Nails in a vest he takes it to a busy uh what subway station train station like their version of Time Square I think basically yeah and he sets it off uh killing what a ton of people right cuz the nails yeah just Shing them more than 200 people or something just a a really really horrible thing and the film seem seems to stop there and you don't know if uh Eno is transported to heaven or not right um he believes that his whole body intact will be transported in that moment um there's a a little bit of a gap there the guy who helped him the film guy from the documentary ends up getting convicted of complicity and he spends 20 something years in jail and then he get and then we flash forward to the future 20 something years later he's just gotten of jail he goes to the same restaurant from earlier in the movie and um we find out in that moment I don't I'm not really going to try to explain how or why but there's a very good reason why in that moment we find out what really happened to Eno 21 years later is that he is transported when he blows up the bomb he is transported intact into another dimension where he is fed on by leeches and I guess jelly fish Just For Eternity right I think that's what the end was saying like his head is separated from his body along with the other victims of the original stabbing and they are basically sacrifices to this leech God and they are you know that's their hell yeah so this the whole thing the whole time has been this leech God which basically tricks people manipulates people using its abilities and communicating with with them into committing atrocities so that it can feed on them and I guess consume them for all time I don't know something like that yeah yeah just thought the effects were just the effects were really bad yes really really bad really really really bad and in a key moment that is tough it would have been better just not to show anything or just have the audio or something like that but this director is ambitious and uh I guess he's comfortable with a level ofal
effects I mean at a certain point it's easier just to do it live in a bathtub or something like that you know what I mean like just throw a curtain up on a stage uh let's go to go to the pet store and get some leeches I mean seriously right cut something out of cardboard but no he he does it on the computer there and um it's not a really good computer so that'll take you right out of it unfortunately just I'm going to tell you now if you want to watch this movie let go of the special effects I think Steve you mentioned earlier you were able to just buy into the special effects being what they are I'm going to say again this final scene is a new low for the special effects so be prepared for that but if you can see past that and uh enjoy the story it I prefer I like the ending my explanation is I like a definitive ending I I I think it's it's a little bit sloppy sometimes to leave things up to the imagination of the audience and they can kind of figure out whatever especially if it's a key detail that answers a question presented by the film so I like to know what happened and this is as defini this is the most definitive ending I think I've ever seen in a film that was so full of mystery the whole time yeah I would agree with that I mean I like the ending to know what happened but to know what happened with that level of special effects was not not not the best it's not the way to do it but I'm glad we know that he didn't end up in heaven no and they introduced I want to talk about a couple things um they introduced the concept of automatic writing and they could have used that at the end if they'd gone back to the graphic artist and had her sketch you know Eno just sort of roughly and what was happening to him I that might not have been as definitive and so it probably would have bothered me on that level but it would have been better than this just because the special effects were so rough it would have been it it would have been a good way to take it though because if they would have gone back to that artist for whatever reason make up an excuse mhm and she could Channel this like leech God which she had done before clearly with the with and they asked her what happened yeah did he end up in heaven or something and then she sketched out what happened that would be pretty cool actually you know yeah yeah I I think that could have been better cuz you could have done a pretty creepy looking drawing and I don't know eh so uh anything about the ending that you want to comment on other than how much you love the special effects and the jellyfish yeah well when he does blow himself up the fact that that woman was so stubborn about calling the police and not hiding behind that area was almost it was beyond bizarre to me because presumably you would think like this guy's in like a hyper Panic State like can I just walk two feet forward yeah but that's a matter of perspective right so there you're talking about a scene that's shot from the perspective of the uh complicitous producer and he's decided to document or he's agreed to document Eno's uh final Act and he himself takes refuge in a bus because he knows that the explosion is coming the woman from earlier in the that you talked about who Eno gets mad at because she's he can't really manipulate her so he accuses her of being too aloof and cold she actually shows up and says she's been following them both she's you know she can tell something's going wrong and she starts calling the police but our producer who's hiding in the bus beckons her repeatedly come into the bus come in and take shelter and she stands just outside of the bus on the phone with the police so why wouldn't she take at one step and hide in the bus and from the perspective of the shot yes that makes total sense but from the perspective of somebody who's standing there in that moment I think it's understandable that she would not want to go along with what this guy tells her to do she doesn't trust him she knows he's up to something and stay going inside of a bus doesn't really make sense if you don't trust this person and you believe that what you're doing calling the police will keep you safe and protect others she has no idea how much C4 that you know is actually made I mean it's a massive massive amount and I can't imagine being able to predict that yeah that's a good point I was looking at it from the perspective of you know Monday Morning Quarterback yeah knowing exactly what was happening no but it's it's good it's I think you were in the moment I think the that that particular scene worked well for that that reason because it it triggered that reaction one thing I didn't really understand though was why he didn't just Sprint at full speed away from there as soon as that guy left you know like as soon as he walked off into the crowd you would think his first instinct would be like would just be he knew exactly how much C4 that guy had on him to just Sprint at full speed away from the area and not just kind of wander around which is what he did and then find that bus and walk in there you know it just seemed didn't seem very logical to me I I would make the argument that he he wouldn't understand the destructive power of that much C4 but I think probably in the film The Point was more that this guy was a bit aimless he had been so overwhelmed by his Supernatural experience earlier and he it was supposed to be his mission to stay close so he did not have a plan he was not a planner you know he just kind of went with whatever and it happened to work out for him reasonably well um he found a place that was adequately protected and it wasn't supposed to be luck it was that the will of the leech God I guess yeah almost like he thought about it that moment like oh what am I going to do I can't just stand here I'm going to die too he but if he was a good planner he wouldn't be involved at all you know there's that yeah or a good person right or anything right right if he was a forward thinker I don't think he'd be like let me do this and then later the next thing I'll do next week I'll do this yeah I think he was just sort of caught up in the um the flow these events yeah there's a couple things in the movie I wanted to point out and talk about that are not necessarily about the story they were just mentioned but is there anything else about the story you want to talk about here yeah I don't really have anything anything else about this I think we covered basically everything I want to talk about okay so I did mention automatic writing which is also known as psychography um the idea here being you allow the spiritual world to guide your hand and Ouija boards are an example of this this was something that came up a lot I don't know have you ever heard of project Stargate no okay so there's there have been these uh government programs where they try to take advantage of psychic abilities uh and in order to spy on people or for military purposes project Stargate being an example and automatic writing was featured heavily in that um there's also there have been a lot of instances of scam artists using automatic writing so it's it's an interesting concept I can see why it would get pulled into a film like this it wasn't Central to the film it felt a little bit like a kitchen sink item they're just throwing everything occult related or Supernatural related into one movie I did like that to some extent but the automatic writing felt a little tacked on I don't know did you have any thoughts about that I actually didn't think that it felt that tacked on cuz it kind of explained or or linked the human world with the spirit world a very like tangible way you know okay yeah I did find it odd how they found this woman with and those symbols like they randomly found it somewhere online on some manga Forum you know like what was her what was her search term like what did they search for strange symbol manga artist like that was kind of odd we got one result with the with the exact symbol yeah of course oh of course right thanks Google uh there's also another con go ahead no there were just some pieces of that movie that just like there's real jumps and logic that yes yeah for sure that does happen but it was somewhat forgivable because the scenes were often um that they jump to were often good scenes so yeah I was like all right I'll allow it yeah for sure that was a big one so you also mentioned a concept or a phenomenon in Japan which I thought we might talk about for a second net cafe refugees uh they also called them manga Cafe refugees so this is a real phenomenon in Japan they also call them the Cyber homeless so in uh Tokyo I guess or in parts of Japan they have these allnight cafes they're open 24 hours they have they allow you to use for a small fee allow you to use the internet and they have comic books and there's a whole class of people who actually use that as their home so every day uh they go and they or every evening um they go and they they check in they reserve a seat at a little table with a computer um and then there are in many cases showers there's food for sale there are unlimited drinks like soft drinks that come with the purchase of the space I guess the chair for the night so it was they were serving as homeless shelters like basically hostiles really interesting concept are they still big yeah um so they were first like observed like this idea of cyber homeless right was originally um identified around 2007 so around the time they were shooting this film there was a lot of press about hey wait we've got a whole bunch of homeless people who are staying in these cafes you know in these like cyber these like internet manga cafes all night um they don't have a permanent address so they're unhoused um so it became publicized but then during covid those businesses closed so those mostly men were pushed into the streets and they had to go for food handouts and things like that and so there's some interesting I saw a video on uh CNN online like an archived video where they were interviewing these people and they were saying like I I hate being in this line asking for free food this is shameful to my family this is the first time I've had to do that because they've always been able to find just enough Day Labor uh you know just work for a day or two or week or whatever um to earn money just like our character in this film to earn enough money to uh stay in these places every night or almost every night um and then they get a little bit of food and you know soda and take a shower and then they get up the next day and they're able to go find work some of those days during Co they were pushed into relief lines and things like that and it was it really brought the problem back to the Forefront yeah I don't think there there's an equivalent of that here I know in libraries in major cities if there's homeless there they typically they're not allowed to go to sleep so they can sit there but they can't sleep and when they go to sleep they get kicked out yeah so it's a big problem I think in America they just just end up on the streets you know and they a lot of them uh try to get enough money to get a bus ticket somewhere warm and even migrating with the seasons and you'll notice especially around here when they put in new benches they make sure to put in like armrests and dividers so that you can't lay down on it yeah they a build shelters little tricks too with you know potted plants or or kind of bench type areas they'll put many spikes on those so you can't lay down on those so they have all kinds of deterrents that they install it's kind of I understand it but it's also kind of sad you know that like you can't there's there's no good solution for the problem I guess no and I don't know if this net cafe idea this like cyber homelessness is is a better solution but and I don't know if it would apply like maybe the homeless here are categorically or qualitatively different than the homeless in Japan I would imagine in a lot of ways that's true so even if there were a series of places where someone could go and for a very very low price you know have a shower have somewhere to sit or you know sleep um you know even if that's not the purpose of the place uh I don't know if that would work here or if it would cause more problems I don't maybe it's we have too much violence too many guns it would just cause you know issues maybe drugs are more of a problem here than there I don't know but it's an interesting phenomenon so I just thought i' mention it yeah I I hadn't heard of that before I know they had 24-hour cafes or cyber cafes but I just thought about as Gamers going to him and playing right games all night yeah well and it's interesting too I mean this is probably less interesting but uh they call them manga cafes because apparently there was a business there was enough business of people who want to sit and read comic books all night that seems odd yeah seems very odd but you know to each his own right yeah I guess so so uh during the film there's a to me what was a very strange thing on the last day before they're going to blow up the Time Square area um Eno our character he has some time to kill right so he decides to go see Indiana Jones in the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull they actually go see that movie did you notice that I did I and it was all blurred out because of copyright yeah and they bleep out Indiana Jones like he he goes like Indiana bleep like a couple times I'm like what is that I was wondering what was happening I was that was so odd and why why they threw that in there was very strange everything else about what they did was very generic they're going to a fast food place they never name it he's going to different locations around the city it's just it's just a city almost like a generic City and then all of a sudden hey I love Indiana Jones yeah let's go see Indiana Jones for absolutely no no reason whatsoever like they just threw that in there just to fill up some time and then they never talked about it again and it was kind of like okay no they did they they came out of the movie and they sat and had McDonald's and um they talk about or the you know the character just kind of pontificates about how much this movie is related to his mission and how it convinced him to follow through because there's so many similarities and there's so many themes in the film and things that happen in the film that tie to his mission that it can't be a coincidence what was he talking about have you seen Indiana Jones in the Crystal Skull I fell asleep um I did too I fell asleep in that movie it was the worst you know what I I woke up I woke up when he St steps out of a refrigerator or something that gets blown up isn't that what happens at the end that's in the beginning
oh so I missed the whole movie it's like me and um Terminator Genesis oh yeah that was hilarious uh you were like this movie's pretty good and then you fell
asleep okay so I I have not seen one more one more quick thing about the whole um what I just mentioned that they left Indiana Jones and then they never talked about it again that's what happens when you're writing notes while you're watching a subtitled movie so I'm writing my notes about them going to see Indiana Jones and then by the time I'm done oh you missed you missed the dialog miss the dialogue yeah because I'm writing notes trying to like you know yeah yeah yeah I I think I looked up just in time and maybe backed up a little bit so I I watched Indiana Jones and Kingdom of the crystal go in in the theater I made it all the way to about halfway and then I fell asleep and then I woke up close to the end when they're running around and Aliens show up what in that film everything that he's talking about must have happened in the like 20 30 minutes that I fell asleep during because there is literally nothing about that movie that I can think of there's no giant ants that are relevant to his thing there's no aliens like it's got to be something about like trusting the you know the supernatural or having faith in the Supernatural or something that he's referencing I don't know or is it or is it about the characters themselves like their relationship like Indiana Jones and like shil of buff is in it maybe there's something to do there I don't know yeah of course so so obviously we're just guessing and that's not good guessing yeah so on we do that sometimes just just ignore us you section yeah so fun fact a cult actually has a better rating on IMDb than than kingdom of the Crystal Skull that's pretty sad if you think about it yeah 6.5 vers 6.2 so poor Indiana let's do budget versus [Laughter] budget oh man good times all right so who would you recommend this movie a cult to um fans of movies like Blair Witch um yes if you liked Blair Witch yes people who find character studies very in very interesting and and fascinating because I think it's this is really well done in terms of examining a character that's unhinged you know there are so many parts in this movie where I thought the plot was going to be him massacring the producers all of a sudden they were going to walk into the office was going to stand up with the knife kill them all and somehow he finishes the documentary it's like goes from his perspective or something oh that actually would have been pretty good yeah yeah that's what I thought was going to happen and which says a lot about the acting yes that actor is good he's he's done a ton of stuff I looked up everybody and most of them didn't even have photos uh but this this guy has done very well he had done some things before too so he was a bit of a good get um and then he's just gone on to do bigger and bigger things anyone else you would recommend this movie too um people want to learn about film making in terms of doing a movie on extremely low budget I'm not saying you would copy everything about it but just like I mentioned early on on the podcast that it it really shows you what can be done on an extremely low budget and makes it very accessible yeah yeah it's very non-threatening for sure um but inspiring in a very inspiring way for sure yeah so I I would recommend men this to anyone who loved pulse if you loved pulse I think this is a film you can kind of get into and enjoy uh very similar in a lot of ways if you recently bought an iPhone and you want to make a movie this is a great movie for you to watch uh if you have some garbage can Lids a broken electric guitar maybe a noisy fridge and you want to break into composing soundtracks for movies this is a great great movie for you very inspiring yeah so what would you do with this intellectual property it dropped into your lap like a camera from hell what would I do um trying to think if this is something that would be right for a for a sequel you know exploring more about the background of this leech God entity mhm would make an interesting movie cuz I could see it as kind of like um you saw that predators that came out recently recently yes where it's like wait pray you mean or Predators PR PR and it's you know takes place in the 1700s I really love that concept and it would be great to see something like this take place in another time period earlier and how manipulated other people I think that could make for a good movie oh that's interesting so what are you gonna have like an old photo album like I guess you give up on the mockumentary piece for that right I think you'd have to yeah it would have to turn into to more of a traditional movie in Wich Book of Shadows something like that but where people actually see
it yeah that's fair that's that's accurate I think I think in terms of backstory I mean if you wanted to keep following this mockumentary idea I don't know there's just so many things about this movie that that only work around the mystery and once you know know the mystery yeah you really have to take it in a completely different direction I think which would be another movie altogether what do you think yeah that's true uh the first half of this F actually the first hour change of this film really do rely on the mystery and it that's part that's the part I like the most I mean I really did enjoy the performance of the main actor a lot and that got me through the rest of the film but not knowing the mystery is is what I thoroughly enjoyed about the first hour or so yeah what would you do with it I'd remake it 100% remake it I think there's enough here that you could do something really really good with it whether you made it like a you know five episode relatively lowbudget series streaming series or you just did another film I would keep the found footage bit I'd keep the documentary stuff I just might tweak some of the twists and turns a little bit I might smooth out some of the dialogue and scenes just just a bit here and there obviously completely redo the special effects I think what we were supposed to retroactively at after the end realize were leeches and things like that I didn't get it all and I I never got the connection with jellyfish I'm sure it's in there somewhere because otherwise that's so random um I don't think unless the director just in his mind jelly fish and leeches are connected somehow I just never got that so anyway there a bunch of things like that that I think could be reshot and redone by someone very talented more talented than myself who could uh make that work very well but this really fundamental piece of playing between pity and fear that I I think is spectacular and would keep that 100% And and then when you find out that yeah you know the pity and fear thing resolved in a way that's fairly predictable I.E uh you know you should have been afraid but the reality is not for the reasons you would think so I think that's great yeah this movie I think done in a much higher budget way it reminds me of that series The Kingdom have you heard of this is this the zombie one Dan Danish about a um haunted hospital it's excellent yeah it's all about the supernatural think would be right up your alley on IMDb it gets an 8.2 rating oh okay great and they describe it as surreal ominous and Atmospheric which is really the way I would kind of describe this movie too I'll have to check that out all right anything else today no I think I'm good another good one uh so thank you to the people who made this project I really enjoyed it thank you to the listeners uh make sure you stay away from those like And subscribe buttons we'll be back next time with two topics back bacon and long underwear sounds like a great one thank you see you next week take care